Discussion:
The Sacred Odor of the Golden Yawn
(too old to reply)
Alexander Mulligan
2004-09-23 20:28:49 UTC
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The Sacred Odor of the Golden Yawn
----------------------------------

An Overview of the Primary Ritual for all Novices (the name
is too powerful to post)

I. >>>>>>


Obtain the necessary sacred objects and supplies. There is
a SALE at www.goldenyawn.con, the _only_ licensed dealer of
sacred Golden Yawn paraphernalia.

You will need:

1. Standard 1 Meter Pentangle Decal for your floor. #2378A $14.95

2. Standard Mage's Robe w/Runes (6 delightful color schemes available)
#3489A-F $85.95

3. Standard Wizard's Staff (6'2" Genuine Druid's Ash) #345 $59.95

4. The ABCs & XYZs of Magick (59 volumes) by Grand Master Tarvus_the_Awesome
(Lawrence H. Johnson, CPA) #894F $880.00

5. Genuine Sacred Serpent Ring (Hand-Forged Iron) #4568d $33.00

6. Enchanted Herbal Incense Pack (12 potent fragrances) #23zz $8.49

7. Official Golden Yawn Incense Burner (ceramic) #33p $16.95

8. Sanctified Drawing Paper and Power Pencils (Novice Pack) #341j $15.59

9. Standard Golden Yawn Power Pencil Sharpener #342g $34.95

10. Hellfire Matches (made with genuine Brimstone!) #666 $6.66

11. Egyptian God Chamber Pot #7322 $64.39

Now, on the Spring Solstice, and only on the Spring
Solstice, precisely as the clock strikes Midnight, open
volume 1 of "The ABCs & XYZs of Magick" to page 400.

Copyright 1994 by Grand Master Tarvus_the_Awesome
(Lawrence H. Johnson, CPA)

II. >>>>>>


After affixing your Standard 1 Meter Pentangle Decal to
the floor and donning your Standard Mage's Robe w/Runes
and grasping your Standard Wizard's Staff and placing your
Genuine Sacred Serpent Ring on the middle finger of your
Left Hand, open the Enchanted Herbal Incense Pack and light
one of the sticks in your Official Golden Yawn Incense
Burner with Hellfire Matches while reading the text found in
Appendix 413.

This will take approximately 4 hours. Concentration must
be total.

Light more Enchanted Herbal Incense as necessary. Use your
Egyptian God Chamber Pot as necessary too, but you must
NEVER miss a word or break the rythm.

If you do, try again next year.

III. >>>>>>


Now. Place your left foot in the center of the Standard 1
Meter Pentangle Decal and raise your right hand and put your
index finger on the tip of your nose and recite the 14 page
Extreme Left Pillar of Zardov Call in Ancient Hebrew, found
in the same Appendix.

If you make a mistake, try again next year.

IV. >>>>>>


Pound your Standard Wizard's Staff on the 4th Point of the
Standard 1 Meter Pentangle Decal in time with the beating
of your heart while repeating: "Yammamma Foo Drango Poptop
Ezereal isa isa isa FOO FOO FOO Ak Ak Ak", *exactly* 1113
times, the Sacred Number of Ethereal Labia on the Demoness
HoramaWowwa.

If you make a mistake, try again next year.

V. >>>>>>


Seperately, on each sheet of Sanctified Drawing Paper,
with your Power Pencils, re-create the Holy Diagrams
found in Appendix 198, one for each sheet. Please be
careful to reproduce the 46-Color images EXACTLY.

If you make a mistake, try again next year.

=========================================================


Consult Volume 19 of "The ABCs & XYZs of Magick" ...

Copyright 1994 by Grand Master Tarvus_the_Awesome
(Lawrence H. Johnson, CPA)

... for the details of the above Critical Ritual.

It MUST be performed to PERFECTION before you will
experience the Sacred Odor of the Golden Yawn.


==========================================================


<+>
--
Bells Ring Under Cerulean Ecstasy
Alexander Mulligan
2004-09-23 21:33:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Mulligan
The Sacred Odor of the Golden Yawn
----------------------------------
That's what Golden Yawners smell, when, after years of
grueling rituals, they finally attract the attention of
God. Not because of the rituals, but because they were
imperfectly *intending* to do so.

[...]


<+>
--
Bells Ring Under Cerulean Ecstasy
kate
2004-09-24 11:52:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Mulligan
Post by Alexander Mulligan
The Sacred Odor of the Golden Yawn
----------------------------------
That's what Golden Yawners smell, when, after years of
grueling rituals, they finally attract the attention of
God. Not because of the rituals, but because they were
imperfectly *intending* to do so.
And all ya get for all that time and grueling work is a crappy t-shirt that
says 'Damn tootin' pootin'!" Shit.......
Post by Alexander Mulligan
[...]
<+>
--
Bells Ring Under Cerulean Ecstasy
Alexander Mulligan
2004-09-24 15:12:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by kate
Post by Alexander Mulligan
Post by Alexander Mulligan
The Sacred Odor of the Golden Yawn
----------------------------------
That's what Golden Yawners smell, when, after years of
grueling rituals, they finally attract the attention of
God. Not because of the rituals, but because they were
imperfectly *intending* to do so.
And all ya get for all that time and grueling work is
a crappy t-shirt that says 'Damn tootin' pootin'!"
Shit.......
hehe

You forgot the Secret Decoder Ring.

<+>
--
Bells Ring Under Cerulean Ecstasy
kate
2004-09-27 06:44:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Mulligan
Post by kate
Post by Alexander Mulligan
Post by Alexander Mulligan
The Sacred Odor of the Golden Yawn
----------------------------------
That's what Golden Yawners smell, when, after years of
grueling rituals, they finally attract the attention of
God. Not because of the rituals, but because they were
imperfectly *intending* to do so.
And all ya get for all that time and grueling work is
a crappy t-shirt that says 'Damn tootin' pootin'!"
Shit.......
hehe
You forgot the Secret Decoder Ring.
;p They gave me that first. How do you think I got thru all the codes? ;)
Post by Alexander Mulligan
<+>
--
Bells Ring Under Cerulean Ecstasy
Nihilist
2004-09-24 22:20:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by kate
And all ya get for all that time and grueling work is a crappy t-shirt that
says 'Damn tootin' pootin'!" Shit.......
Why, hello Kate. How's our friendship doing these days?
kate
2004-09-27 06:46:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nihilist
Post by kate
And all ya get for all that time and grueling work is a crappy t-shirt that
says 'Damn tootin' pootin'!" Shit.......
Why, hello Kate. How's our friendship doing these days?
Which one? Yours and mine, hers and his, theirs and ours? *chuckle*
In the words of my(used to be) little kid, "I like you, do you like me?" ;)
Nihilist
2004-09-27 12:50:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by kate
In the words of my(used to be) little kid, "I like you, do you like me?" ;)
I read the alt.seduction.fast newsgroup.
Lady Chatterly
2004-09-27 16:29:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nihilist
Post by kate
In the words of my(used to be) little kid, "I like you, do you like me?" ;)
I read the alt.seduction.fast newsgroup.
I don't care about names.

--
Lady Chatterly

"Still talking to the bot too. What a maroon!" -- Aratzio
Nihilist
2004-09-28 00:56:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lady Chatterly
I don't care about names.
Trollettes make me horny. Keep fueling my fire. I know you want a
piece of the Nihilist.

Names? "Lady Chatterly <***@catcher.in.the.rye>"

Hold'on, it's La-dy Slinger!
Lady Chatterly
2004-09-28 00:58:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nihilist
Post by Lady Chatterly
I don't care about names.
Trollettes make me horny. Keep fueling my fire. I know you want a
piece of the Nihilist.
The scientific theory I like best is that the rings of Saturn are
composed entirely of lost airline luggage.
An incurable itch for scribbling takes possession of many and grows
inveterate in their insane hearts.
Post by Nihilist
Hold'on, it's La-dy Slinger!
Don't you realize that there are enough people to hate in the world
already without your working so hard to give us another?

--
Lady Chatterly

"Hey Meat-->Retard, meet your replacement, Lady C! All the pointless
stupidity in a followup I could ever want and more! And it's
automated! With "Brand X" programming! Oh, oh you're obsolete now,
mother fucker. -- Onideus Mad Hatter
naismith
2004-09-28 09:59:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nihilist
Post by kate
In the words of my(used to be) little kid, "I like you, do you like me?" ;)
I read the alt.seduction.fast newsgroup.
It's not working for you though.
Nihilist
2004-09-28 20:31:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by naismith
Post by Nihilist
I read the alt.seduction.fast newsgroup.
It's not working for you though.
That's because all I do is read it.
naismith
2004-09-28 21:09:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nihilist
Post by naismith
Post by Nihilist
I read the alt.seduction.fast newsgroup.
It's not working for you though.
That's because all I do is read it.
Exactly. So, that makes you either an armchair seducer,
or one who has an outré` fetish for furniture?
Nihilist
2004-09-29 04:57:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by naismith
Post by Nihilist
Post by naismith
Post by Nihilist
I read the alt.seduction.fast newsgroup.
It's not working for you though.
That's because all I do is read it.
Exactly. So, that makes you either an armchair seducer,
or one who has an outré` fetish for furniture?
Both. A fetish for armchairs.
naismith
2004-09-29 10:22:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nihilist
Post by naismith
Post by Nihilist
Post by naismith
Post by Nihilist
I read the alt.seduction.fast newsgroup.
It's not working for you though.
That's because all I do is read it.
Exactly. So, that makes you either an armchair seducer,
or one who has an outré` fetish for furniture?
Both. A fetish for armchairs.
Oh. Whoopie, cushions?
kate
2004-10-01 07:24:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by naismith
Post by Nihilist
Post by naismith
Post by Nihilist
Post by naismith
Post by Nihilist
I read the alt.seduction.fast newsgroup.
It's not working for you though.
That's because all I do is read it.
Exactly. So, that makes you either an armchair seducer,
or one who has an outré` fetish for furniture?
Both. A fetish for armchairs.
Oh. Whoopie, cushions?
Armless armchairs.
naismith
2004-10-01 08:59:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nihilist
Post by naismith
Post by naismith
Post by Nihilist
I read the alt.seduction.fast newsgroup.
It's not working for you though.
Post by Nihilist
That's because all I do is read it.
Exactly. So, that makes you either an armchair seducer,
or one who has an outré` fetish for furniture?
Both. A fetish for armchairs.
Post by naismith
Oh. Whoopie, cushions?
Armless armchairs.
0_o
Whoopie - with or without the cushions.
kate
2004-10-01 07:23:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nihilist
Post by naismith
Post by Nihilist
I read the alt.seduction.fast newsgroup.
It's not working for you though.
That's because all I do is read it.
Lazy.
kate
2004-10-01 07:22:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nihilist
Post by kate
In the words of my(used to be) little kid, "I like you, do you like me?" ;)
I read the alt.seduction.fast newsgroup.
So you're learning how to seduce 'fast'??? What's a seduction if it ain't
slow?? *bwah*
Rhyanon
2004-10-01 12:33:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by kate
Post by Nihilist
Post by kate
In the words of my(used to be) little kid, "I like you, do you like
me?" ;)
Post by Nihilist
I read the alt.seduction.fast newsgroup.
So you're learning how to seduce 'fast'??? What's a seduction if it ain't
slow?? *bwah*
No, it has to be, "do you LIKE like me" ....
;D
kate
2004-10-03 10:30:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhyanon
Post by kate
Post by Nihilist
Post by kate
In the words of my(used to be) little kid, "I like you, do you like
me?" ;)
Post by Nihilist
I read the alt.seduction.fast newsgroup.
So you're learning how to seduce 'fast'??? What's a seduction if it ain't
slow?? *bwah*
No, it has to be, "do you LIKE like me" ....
;D
Hokay, "Like, do ya like me, or like, don't ya like me? Shaaaaa!" *g
Tom
2004-09-24 04:22:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Mulligan
The Sacred Odor of the Golden Yawn
Bruce discovers something new to denounce. I wonder what he'll demand that
they "prove" to him.
Alexander Mulligan
2004-09-24 05:14:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Mulligan
The Sacred Odor of the Golden Yawn
Bruce discovers something new to denounce. I wonder what
he'll demand that they "prove" to him.
They (the Sacred Order of the Golden Dawn) are just another
'Ceremonial Magick' group. No different from the rest.

What they practice is the useless mess of meaningless
rituals that result when people try to fit Magick into
the little Physical Science Box (paradigm): To see it as
a *technology*, some barely perceived machine that will
perform as they wish if they only can find and press the
right buttons in the right order, the mechanics of which
will be duly explained by Father Science in good time.

What they do has little but theatrical value, and the
evidence supporting this claim can be found in the simple
fact that almost none of them can exhibit special powers
or a quality-of-life significantly higher than that of the
average person.

They are barking up the wrong tree. Learning Magick requires
a personal mental evolution, a somersault of consciousness.

Magickal Science can account for Physical Science, but not
the other way around.

Nature *is* supernatural.

Consciousness creates matter.



<+>
--
Bells Ring Under Cerulean Ecstasy
Frater Hairetikos
2004-09-24 14:01:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Mulligan
Post by Alexander Mulligan
The Sacred Odor of the Golden Yawn
Bruce discovers something new to denounce. I wonder what
he'll demand that they "prove" to him.
They (the Sacred Order of the Golden Dawn) are just another
'Ceremonial Magick' group. No different from the rest.
What they practice is the useless mess of meaningless
rituals that result when people try to fit Magick into
the little Physical Science Box (paradigm): To see it as
a *technology*, some barely perceived machine that will
perform as they wish if they only can find and press the
right buttons in the right order, the mechanics of which
will be duly explained by Father Science in good time.
What they do has little but theatrical value, and the
evidence supporting this claim can be found in the simple
fact that almost none of them can exhibit special powers
or a quality-of-life significantly higher than that of the
average person.
They are barking up the wrong tree. Learning Magick requires
a personal mental evolution, a somersault of consciousness.
Magickal Science can account for Physical Science, but not
the other way around.
Nature *is* supernatural.
Consciousness creates matter.
You seem to think that there's no deeper purpose for performing the
GD-based rituals. I Know of no GD magician who thinks that
superficially going through the words and movements will have an
effect in and of itself. What many people fail to realize is that the
ritual is only a tool, it's only purpose is to focus the mind. Any GD
occultist who doesn't know this apparently has much to learn.
The theatrical value observation is most keen. Some occultists call
this "psychodrama." This, too, is not merely superficial, though. This
psychodrama and all the theatrics involved is intended to have a
specific effect on the practicioner's psyche. And this is my point,
the rituals that you're putting down are merely tools. Their effect is
on the mind, not on reality itself. It's the occultist who performs
the magic, after all. Not the system they're using.

You say:
"To see it as a *technology*, some barely perceived machine that will
perform as they wish if they only can find and press the right buttons
in the right order"

Some occultists may see it this way, but they're surely uneducated
ones. I do not see rituals such as the GD ones as being mechanic,
they're certainly not set in stone. Different rituals work for
different people. This is why some people stick to Thelema, others to
the GD tradition, others to Wicca, etc. It's not a matter of pushing
the right buttons, as you say; it's a matter of finding what works
best for oneself.

But, you've illustrated that ritual magic is not for everybody. And
this is how it should be: no system can work for absolutely everyone.
But, you don't have to poke fun at those who do use ritual. To each
their own, right?
Nihilist
2004-09-24 22:13:25 UTC
Permalink
This psychodrama and all the theatrics involved is intended to have a
specific effect on the practicioner's psyche.
What effect is that?
on the mind, not on reality itself. It's the occultist who performs
the magic, after all.
How is "magic" being defined?

I work with the changes-in-consciousness definition. You seem to have the same idea.
Tom
2004-09-25 00:00:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nihilist
This psychodrama and all the theatrics involved is intended to have a
specific effect on the practicioner's psyche.
What effect is that?
Well, it's not actually psychodrama, as the term was coined by J. L. Moreno
in the 1920's.

http://www.lesley.edu/faculty/estrella/psychodrama.html

However, in the 1960's people started calling all kinds of things
"psychodrama", so the meaning of the term has been pretty thoroughly diluted
in common parlance.
Frater Hairetikos
2004-09-26 01:39:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom
Post by Nihilist
This psychodrama and all the theatrics involved is intended to have a
specific effect on the practicioner's psyche.
What effect is that?
Well, it's not actually psychodrama, as the term was coined by J. L. Moreno
in the 1920's.
http://www.lesley.edu/faculty/estrella/psychodrama.html
However, in the 1960's people started calling all kinds of things
"psychodrama", so the meaning of the term has been pretty thoroughly diluted
in common parlance.
It is indeed psychodrama. I was not referring to the clinical aspect
of it, I was referring to the occult practice of it. Words can have
different meanings and definitions in varying contexts, can't they?

Saying that its meaning has been "diluted" is missing the big picture.
I never said that the system I presented was the one and only form of
psychodrama. Just that it is psychodrama.

Also, just because the clinical practice has been publicized and
properly named before the occult practice was does not mean that the
occult form followed the clinical form. Ritual has been used by many
different cultures throughout history and it has always essentially
been an esoteric form of psychodrama. If linguistics mean this much to
you, you can feel free to invent a new term for this occult practice.
:)
Tom
2004-09-26 04:21:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
Well, it's not actually psychodrama, as the term was coined by J. L. Moreno
in the 1920's.
http://www.lesley.edu/faculty/estrella/psychodrama.html
However, in the 1960's people started calling all kinds of things
"psychodrama", so the meaning of the term has been pretty thoroughly diluted
in common parlance.
It is indeed psychodrama. I was not referring to the clinical aspect
of it, I was referring to the occult practice of it. Words can have
different meanings and definitions in varying contexts, can't they?
Saying that its meaning has been "diluted" is missing the big picture.
I never said that the system I presented was the one and only form of
psychodrama. Just that it is psychodrama.
Like I say, the term was diluted to vagueness in the 1960's. Nobody called
any of the Golden Dawn rituals "psychodrama" until the word lost its
specific meaning.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Also, just because the clinical practice has been publicized and
properly named before the occult practice was does not mean that the
occult form followed the clinical form.
I'm talking about the word "psychodrama" and the specific meaning it had
when it was coined. You're talking about GD practices. Let's not pretend
we're talking about the same thing.

Nothing the Golden Dawn does is anything like what Moreno meant when he
coined the term. GD rituals are "psychodrama" only in the very loosest and
most uninformed meaning of the term.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Ritual has been used by many
different cultures throughout history and it has always essentially
been an esoteric form of psychodrama.
You are again referring to the word now that it has been diluted to
virtually meaninglessness. Every and any performance where psychological
issues (realistic or not) are prominent could now be called "psychodrama",
like Hitchcock thrillers, Neil Simon plays, Monty Python skits, and so on.
It tells us nothing useful at all.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
If linguistics mean this much to
you, you can feel free to invent a new term for this occult practice.
"Ceremony" fills the bill nicely.

We might also use the phrase "pseudoecclesiastical hijinks".

It depends on what aspect of it we want to highlight.
MDHJWH
2004-09-27 12:12:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
If linguistics mean this much to
you, you can feel free to invent a new term for this occult practice.
"Ceremony" fills the bill nicely.
We might also use the phrase "pseudoecclesiastical hijinks".
It depends on what aspect of it we want to highlight.
Order of Service ?
Frater Hairetikos
2004-09-27 14:25:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
Well, it's not actually psychodrama, as the term was coined by J. L.
Moreno
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
in the 1920's.
http://www.lesley.edu/faculty/estrella/psychodrama.html
However, in the 1960's people started calling all kinds of things
"psychodrama", so the meaning of the term has been pretty thoroughly
diluted
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
in common parlance.
It is indeed psychodrama. I was not referring to the clinical aspect
of it, I was referring to the occult practice of it. Words can have
different meanings and definitions in varying contexts, can't they?
Saying that its meaning has been "diluted" is missing the big picture.
I never said that the system I presented was the one and only form of
psychodrama. Just that it is psychodrama.
Like I say, the term was diluted to vagueness in the 1960's. Nobody called
any of the Golden Dawn rituals "psychodrama" until the word lost its
specific meaning.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Also, just because the clinical practice has been publicized and
properly named before the occult practice was does not mean that the
occult form followed the clinical form.
I'm talking about the word "psychodrama" and the specific meaning it had
when it was coined. You're talking about GD practices. Let's not pretend
we're talking about the same thing.
Nothing the Golden Dawn does is anything like what Moreno meant when he
coined the term. GD rituals are "psychodrama" only in the very loosest and
most uninformed meaning of the term.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Ritual has been used by many
different cultures throughout history and it has always essentially
been an esoteric form of psychodrama.
You are again referring to the word now that it has been diluted to
virtually meaninglessness. Every and any performance where psychological
issues (realistic or not) are prominent could now be called "psychodrama",
like Hitchcock thrillers, Neil Simon plays, Monty Python skits, and so on.
It tells us nothing useful at all.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
If linguistics mean this much to
you, you can feel free to invent a new term for this occult practice.
"Ceremony" fills the bill nicely.
We might also use the phrase "pseudoecclesiastical hijinks".
It depends on what aspect of it we want to highlight.
"Like I say, the term was diluted to vagueness in the 1960's. Nobody
called any of the Golden Dawn rituals "psychodrama" until the word
lost its specific meaning."

I just don't share this opinion. I don't see why a word must be
considered diluted when new applications of that word arise. To me,
all this means is that this word has a broader definition than when it
was originally used.

"I'm talking about the word "psychodrama" and the specific meaning it
had when it was coined. You're talking about GD practices. Let's not
pretend we're talking about the same thing."

We're referring to the same word, but you seem to think that it cannot
have more than one application. I understand that it had one specific
meaning when it was coined. But, this is no longer so. Words evolve
just like everything else.

"Nothing the Golden Dawn does is anything like what Moreno meant when
he coined the term."

No, of course not. But then, I was never referring to the clinical
side of psychodrama to begin with. I said this in my previous message.

"GD rituals are "psychodrama" only in the very loosest and most
uninformed meaning of the term."

You're looking at this term in an outdated way. For instance,
Meriam-Webster defines "psychodrama" as: 1 : an extemporized
dramatization designed to afford catharsis and social relearning for
one or more of the participants from whose life history the plot is
abstracted 2 : a dramatic narrative or event characterized by
psychological overtones. Notice that this is the MODERN definition of
this word. From this definition, ceremonial rituals fit the criteria
of psychodrama quite nicely.

"You are again referring to the word now that it has been diluted to
virtually meaninglessness."

No, I'm referring to the word now that its applications have been
expanded.

"Every and any performance where psychological issues (realistic or
not) are prominent could now be called "psychodrama", like Hitchcock
thrillers, Neil Simon plays, Monty Python skits, and so on. It tells
us nothing useful at all."

Yes. Like I said, words evolve. It'd be a boring world if they didn't.

"'Ceremony' fills the bill nicely."

It does, but only in a vague way. This term doesn't say anything about
the psychological aspect of ritual.

"We might also use the phrase 'pseudoecclesiastical hijinks'."

Yes, this certainly is what it seems to be from an uninformed
perspective.

"It depends on what aspect of it we want to highlight."

Good point. Which is why I prefer to use the term "psychodrama."
Tom
2004-09-27 15:28:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
Like I say, the term was diluted to vagueness in the 1960's. Nobody
called any of the Golden Dawn rituals "psychodrama" until the word
lost its specific meaning.
I just don't share this opinion.
This is not an opinion, but a statement of fact.

Here is a quote from psychiatrist Dr. Adam Blatner, in an article entitled
"Historical Distortions Regarding Psychodrama in the Professional
Literature".

"Some phrases catch on because of their general associations, even when
these are actually off the point. "Acting out" is one such example,
referring in most situations to mere rambunctuous misbehavior, rather than
the more precise defense mechanism of reducing tension through behavior
rather than through words and reflection.
Psychodrama has become similarly degraded in the popular literature. It has
come to mean simply a 'psychologically weighty drama.' Popular newsmagazines
will use it to describe a moving and complex play or movie, or even an event
in real life. The problem here involves not merely the dilution of a
powerful idea, nor merely an affront to a professional guild, but rather it
degrades the process and so misleads the public regarding the therapeutic
potential of conscious enactment."
Post by Frater Hairetikos
I don't see why a word must be
considered diluted when new applications of that word arise.
It is diluted when that "new application" is just a bit of psychobabble
which has nothing at all to do with what the person who coined the term only
a decade or two earlier actually meant by it.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
To me, all this means is that this word has a broader definition than
when it was originally used.
You are trying to use the term to suggest that Golden Dawn ritual methods
are a form of psychotherapy called "psychodrama", not in the broader sense
that psychodrama is any expression of psychological issues. So you are
trying to rest your arguments on the original meaning of the term, except
that the GD rituals are *not* the form of therapy called "psychodrama".
Because it is not at all like the therapy method developed by Moreno, you
are obliged to defend your term by retreating to the popular distortion of
the term in which it no longer means any kind of psychologically
transformative operation at all.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
Nothing the Golden Dawn does is anything like what Moreno
meant when he coined the term.
No, of course not. But then, I was never referring to the clinical
side of psychodrama to begin with. I said this in my previous message.
You specifically used the term "psychodrama" to describe a process
essentially the same as that of a form of psychotherapy.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
This psychodrama and all the theatrics involved is intended to have a
specific effect on the practicioner's psyche.
Your claim that this is a "occult" term instead of merely a popular
disortion is specious. No occultist used the term before Moreno. and no
occultist has used the term in any way other than its popular disortion.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
"GD rituals are "psychodrama" only in the very loosest and most
uninformed meaning of the term."
You're looking at this term in an outdated way. For instance,
Meriam-Webster defines "psychodrama" as: 1 : an extemporized
dramatization designed to afford catharsis and social relearning for
one or more of the participants from whose life history the plot is
abstracted 2 : a dramatic narrative or event characterized by
psychological overtones. Notice that this is the MODERN definition of
this word. From this definition, ceremonial rituals fit the criteria
of psychodrama quite nicely.
The term "psychodrama" was coined in the 1920's. That hardly qualifies it
an an ancient term. It *is* a modern word. It has since been distorted to
mean almost anything, which makes it nothing more than worthless
psychobabble.

Now, you can keep on pretending that your GD rituals are some sort of
psychotherapy if you like, but you're only appealing to the gullible and
imprecise when you do.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
"Ceremony" fills the bill nicely.
It does, but only in a vague way. This term doesn't say anything about
the psychological aspect of ritual.
So you are now claiming that the Golden Dawn is only vaguely ceremonial?
I'm not concerned with your claims for its alleged psychotherapeutic
effects, except where you try to pretend you're practicing a form of therapy
called "psychodrama".
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
We might also use the phrase "pseudoecclesiastical hijinks".
Yes, this certainly is what it seems to be from an uninformed
perspective.
Please tell me in what way the Golden Dawn rituals could not be described as
"pseudoecclesiastical hijinks". I might argue that I am using a "new
application" of the phrase, as you have, but I don't have to make even that
much of a stretch.
Frater Hairetikos
2004-09-29 02:52:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
Like I say, the term was diluted to vagueness in the 1960's. Nobody
called any of the Golden Dawn rituals "psychodrama" until the word
lost its specific meaning.
I just don't share this opinion.
This is not an opinion, but a statement of fact.
Here is a quote from psychiatrist Dr. Adam Blatner, in an article entitled
"Historical Distortions Regarding Psychodrama in the Professional
Literature".
"Some phrases catch on because of their general associations, even when
these are actually off the point. "Acting out" is one such example,
referring in most situations to mere rambunctuous misbehavior, rather than
the more precise defense mechanism of reducing tension through behavior
rather than through words and reflection.
Psychodrama has become similarly degraded in the popular literature. It has
come to mean simply a 'psychologically weighty drama.' Popular newsmagazines
will use it to describe a moving and complex play or movie, or even an event
in real life. The problem here involves not merely the dilution of a
powerful idea, nor merely an affront to a professional guild, but rather it
degrades the process and so misleads the public regarding the therapeutic
potential of conscious enactment."
I was only referring to my opinion of the term being diluted. I know
that this term was never used in the past to describe rituals. But,
quite frankly, it is now. And I have no reason to avoid using it,
because many people understand what it means in the context of a
ritual. I don't deny that the original meaning of the word has been
diluted, but I do deny that the true meaning of the word has...because
words naturally aquire new meanings and contexts of application as our
understanding grows. I don't want to argue over this point anymore,
simply because we don't see eye to eye.
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
I don't see why a word must be
considered diluted when new applications of that word arise.
It is diluted when that "new application" is just a bit of psychobabble
which has nothing at all to do with what the person who coined the term only
a decade or two earlier actually meant by it.
I do understand what you mean, no question about that. I do not share
this perspective, however. I don't consider it strictly as being
psychobabble; it has deeper purposes in ritual. In my eyes, it's a
legitimate use of the term; just so long as everyone understands that
it is in no way referring to the clinical aspect of psychodrama. This
is another side to this argument that I would like to discontinue. It
won't go anywhere.
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
To me, all this means is that this word has a broader definition than
when it was originally used.
You are trying to use the term to suggest that Golden Dawn ritual methods
are a form of psychotherapy called "psychodrama", not in the broader sense
that psychodrama is any expression of psychological issues. So you are
trying to rest your arguments on the original meaning of the term, except
that the GD rituals are *not* the form of therapy called "psychodrama".
Because it is not at all like the therapy method developed by Moreno, you
are obliged to defend your term by retreating to the popular distortion of
the term in which it no longer means any kind of psychologically
transformative operation at all.
If this is how you'd like to see it, fine. Just for the record,
though, I never claimed that any ritual has therapeutic effects, as
the term psychotherapy implies. All I claimed is that certain rituals
are designed to have a specific psychological effect. Whether or not
these are therapeutic in any way depends on each individual. I do
realize that this provides further grounds for you to argue my use of
this term. So, for conveniency's sake: yes, I am referring to the
"popular distortion" of this term, even though I see it as the natural
evolution of it. Again, I'm agreeing to disagree.
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
Nothing the Golden Dawn does is anything like what Moreno
meant when he coined the term.
No, of course not. But then, I was never referring to the clinical
side of psychodrama to begin with. I said this in my previous message.
You specifically used the term "psychodrama" to describe a process
essentially the same as that of a form of psychotherapy.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
This psychodrama and all the theatrics involved is intended to have a
specific effect on the practicioner's psyche.
Your claim that this is a "occult" term instead of merely a popular
disortion is specious. No occultist used the term before Moreno. and no
occultist has used the term in any way other than its popular disortion.
No, I didn't say it's an occult term. I said that some occultists use
this term. That's all.
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
"GD rituals are "psychodrama" only in the very loosest and most
uninformed meaning of the term."
You're looking at this term in an outdated way. For instance,
Meriam-Webster defines "psychodrama" as: 1 : an extemporized
dramatization designed to afford catharsis and social relearning for
one or more of the participants from whose life history the plot is
abstracted 2 : a dramatic narrative or event characterized by
psychological overtones. Notice that this is the MODERN definition of
this word. From this definition, ceremonial rituals fit the criteria
of psychodrama quite nicely.
The term "psychodrama" was coined in the 1920's. That hardly qualifies it
an an ancient term. It *is* a modern word. It has since been distorted to
mean almost anything, which makes it nothing more than worthless
psychobabble.
I certainly didn't mean to imply that it's an ancient term. However,
the 1920's are a long way back. Many things do change in the span of
seventy years and I would consider some of those things to be
outdated. The clinical aspect of this term still applies, so this is
not outdated; I'm only referring to the perspective that it's the only
proper definition of the term. I apolagize if I come off as ignorant,
but I must agree with the majority when I say that the applications of
this term have expanded.
Post by Tom
Now, you can keep on pretending that your GD rituals are some sort of
psychotherapy if you like, but you're only appealing to the gullible and
imprecise when you do.
I never once said that GD rituals are a form of psychotherapy. Once
again, I was referring to the "popular distortion" of this term. Now
then, does this make you happy that I've conformed to your
perspective?
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
"Ceremony" fills the bill nicely.
It does, but only in a vague way. This term doesn't say anything about
the psychological aspect of ritual.
So you are now claiming that the Golden Dawn is only vaguely ceremonial?
I'm not concerned with your claims for its alleged psychotherapeutic
effects, except where you try to pretend you're practicing a form of therapy
called "psychodrama".
I'm glad you're not concerned with those claims, seeing as how I never
made them.
Also, I never said that the GD is only vaguely ceremonial. What I said
was that ceremony only vaguely describes their rituals only because it
says nothing of the psychological aspect involved.
This is the last time I'm willing to type this and it should suffice;
I never said that GD rituals were a form of therapy called
psychodrama...because I was not referring to the clinical side of this
term! I was referring to the "revised and expanded" definition of this
term that I will once again quote from Merriam-Webster for clarity's
sake:

"an extemporized dramatization designed to afford catharsis and social
relearning for one or more of the participants from whose life history
the plot is abstracted."

I'm simply not concerned with the definition of this term as it stood
in the 1920's. I'm concerned with how it stands in 2004. You call it a
distortion, I see it as something different. Can we please stop this
already?
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
We might also use the phrase "pseudoecclesiastical hijinks".
Yes, this certainly is what it seems to be from an uninformed
perspective.
Please tell me in what way the Golden Dawn rituals could not be described as
"pseudoecclesiastical hijinks". I might argue that I am using a "new
application" of the phrase, as you have, but I don't have to make even that
much of a stretch.
The term "hijinks" would imply that the rituals are superficial,
depending on how it's being defined in this specific context. This is
not so, and that's why I said it's an uninformed perspective.
Tom
2004-09-29 15:07:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frater Hairetikos
I was only referring to my opinion of the term being diluted. I know
that this term was never used in the past to describe rituals. But,
quite frankly, it is now.
Yes. It was appropriated by people who want to pretend that their antics
are some sort of psychotherapy. That's what I mean when I say the term is
diluted. It no longer refers to the process of psychotherapy for which it
was coined. Instead, it's come to mean anything at all that exresses
something that someone thinks is deeply psychological. For example,
Hitchcock's movie "Spellbound" could be called "psychodrama" because it was
rife with cliches about Freudian analysis. It was also wildly inaccurate in
portraying some aspects of it. When the psychiatrist they hired as a
technical consultant objected to some of those preposterous
misrepresentations, Hitchcock blithely responded, "My dear, it's only a
movie."

So you can use the word "psychodrama" to describe GD rituals if you like,
but that doesn't mean that those rituals have any greater beneficial
psychological effect or insight than watching "Spellbound" does. My dear,
it's only a ritual.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
You are trying to use the term to suggest that Golden Dawn ritual methods
are a form of psychotherapy called "psychodrama", not in the broader sense
that psychodrama is any expression of psychological issues. So you are
trying to rest your arguments on the original meaning of the term, except
that the GD rituals are *not* the form of therapy called "psychodrama".
Because it is not at all like the therapy method developed by Moreno, you
are obliged to defend your term by retreating to the popular distortion of
the term in which it no longer means any kind of psychologically
transformative operation at all.
If this is how you'd like to see it, fine. Just for the record,
though, I never claimed that any ritual has therapeutic effects, as
the term psychotherapy implies.
"This psychodrama and all the theatrics involved is intended to have a
specific effect on the practicioner's psyche."

Now, you might want to "imply" all sorts of things about what psychotherapy
is suppposed to do, but the core of it is that it is a set of techniques for
exploring one's experience of the world, the meanings one applies to them,
and how one can manipulate one's feelings and behavior through such
insights. And that is what you are asserting as the effect of GD rituals,
especially by tossing in some psychobabble about "psychodrama".
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
Your claim that this is a "occult" term instead of merely a popular
distortion is specious. No occultist used the term before Moreno. and
no
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
occultist has used the term in any way other than its popular disortion.
No, I didn't say it's an occult term. I said that some occultists use
this term. That's all.
That makes it an "occult term" then, since you allege that occultists are
using it in some specific way that differs significantly from that of the
person who coined it..
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
The term "psychodrama" was coined in the 1920's. That hardly qualifies it
an an ancient term. It *is* a modern word. It has since been distorted to
mean almost anything, which makes it nothing more than worthless
psychobabble.
I certainly didn't mean to imply that it's an ancient term. However,
the 1920's are a long way back.
If you're a youngster, I suppose it might seem that way.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Also, I never said that the GD is only vaguely ceremonial. What I said
was that ceremony only vaguely describes their rituals only because it
says nothing of the psychological aspect involved.
Please document the psychological changes you have measured which result
from the use of GD rituals.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
"an extemporized dramatization designed to afford catharsis and social
relearning for one or more of the participants from whose life history
the plot is abstracted."
"Spellbound".
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
We might also use the phrase "pseudoecclesiastical hijinks".
Yes, this certainly is what it seems to be from an uninformed
perspective.
Please tell me in what way the Golden Dawn rituals could not be described as
"pseudoecclesiastical hijinks". I might argue that I am using a "new
application" of the phrase, as you have, but I don't have to make even that
much of a stretch.
The term "hijinks" would imply that the rituals are superficial,
depending on how it's being defined in this specific context. This is
not so, and that's why I said it's an uninformed perspective.
No, the term refers to rowdy or noisy recreational behavior. Specifically,
it involves dressing up like some bizarre version of an Episcopal bishop and
doing things that no Episcopal bishop would ever want to be caught doing.
Sure, you like to present these antics as having some deep purpose, but
that's just part of the pseudoecclesiastical pose. It's still just a
leisure time activity, a hobby, like dressing up in medieval clothes at a
renaissance faire. There is nothing at all "uninformed" about that
perspective.
Rick
2004-09-29 17:15:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom
No, the term refers to rowdy or noisy recreational behavior.
Specifically,
Post by Tom
it involves dressing up like some bizarre version of an Episcopal bishop and
doing things that no Episcopal bishop would ever want to be caught doing.
Sure, you like to present these antics as having some deep purpose, but
that's just part of the pseudoecclesiastical pose. It's still just a
leisure time activity, a hobby, like dressing up in medieval clothes at a
renaissance faire. There is nothing at all "uninformed" about that
perspective.
Personally, I prefer dancing naked in the woods (the backyard or even any
ol' room in the house for that matter) to dolling up in robes and what not.
But hey, we all have our own particular kinks, don't we.

IO! PAN!


Rick
Tom
2004-09-29 22:49:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom
Post by Tom
No, the term refers to rowdy or noisy recreational behavior.
Specifically,
Post by Tom
it involves dressing up like some bizarre version of an Episcopal bishop
and
Post by Tom
doing things that no Episcopal bishop would ever want to be caught doing.
Sure, you like to present these antics as having some deep purpose, but
that's just part of the pseudoecclesiastical pose. It's still just a
leisure time activity, a hobby, like dressing up in medieval clothes at a
renaissance faire. There is nothing at all "uninformed" about that
perspective.
Personally, I prefer dancing naked in the woods (the backyard or even any
ol' room in the house for that matter) to dolling up in robes and what not.
But hey, we all have our own particular kinks, don't we.
Hijinks, definitely, but without the overtones of the Church of England.
Nihilist
2004-09-30 01:13:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom
Please document the psychological changes you have measured which result
from the use of GD rituals.
Some versions of the Qabalistic Cross imagination exercise have one
imagine that one is becoming bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.

"I may attain at length to be more than human" -- Adeptus Minor Ritual

It seems to me that the Golden Dawn is structured to make one feel
bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. Hierarchies. Secrets.
Pseudo-intellectual bosh. Hints at powers. Promised command over the
forces of Nature.

The rituals are said to draw Light, LVX. But how is this LVX known to
exist? I like pursuing these things to their conclusions. I don't like
having to absorb piles of junk--excited analyses of the genius of the
INRI formula or whatever--only to see some dogmatic LVX claim inserted
in there and glossed over.

It might be a good start if someone offers me a good definition of
LVX. A Google search for "lvx is" returns around 100 results, one or
two relevant, none explanatory. "lvx is a force...."

I think the Golden Dawn system is like yarn wrapped around a ball of
fluff. You spend years untangling the yarn while memorizing the
features of single threads, only to discover nothing at the core but
tenuous dogma. However, you now have in your hands some wool to throw
over someone else's eyes.


"Occultism frequently gives ample grounds for criticism to its
detractors by making insupportable claims for vaguely defined powers,
the whole compassed by nonsensical theory." -- Hymenaeus Beta, Frater
Superior, O.T.O

"So also for the transcending of this Trance of Sorrow. At first the
victory often comes by trick of mind; extending subject or object, as
the case may be, by an effort to escape reality, one seems for a
moment to have defeated the Equation; but the clouds regather as the
mind recovers its equilibrium. Thus, one invents some 'Heaven,'
defining it arbitrarily as free from sorrow: only to find, on exact
examination, that its conditions are the same as those of 'Earth.'" --
Crowley, *Little Essays Towards Truth*
Tom
2004-09-30 06:19:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nihilist
Some versions of the Qabalistic Cross imagination exercise have one
imagine that one is becoming bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.
"I may attain at length to be more than human" -- Adeptus Minor Ritual
It seems to me that the Golden Dawn is structured to make one feel
bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. Hierarchies. Secrets.
Pseudo-intellectual bosh. Hints at powers. Promised command over the
forces of Nature.
Bigger is not necessarily more. So "more than human" doesn't necessarily
mean "bigger than human".

I do agree that it takes quite a bit of self-pride to presume that you are
one of the tiny minority of humanity that has the virtue (will, power,
strength, character, whatever) to achieve a transcendence of their very
humanity. Now one might argue that anyone has that capacity, but few ever
decide to use it. Still, one has to acknowledge how wonderfully special one
is to have such a lofty goal, as compared with people who find it all they
can handle just to survive. You know. The "mundanes".
Post by Nihilist
The rituals are said to draw Light, LVX. But how is this LVX known to
exist?
Actually, we have some independent observations there. People using many
different approaches, assumptions, and mythologies report the same sense of
"light" which may be induced by religious or mystical practices,
hallucinogenic drugs, or near-death experiences. Lots of the descriptions
of perceptions during profound life-changes include a sense that things seem
"lit up" from the inside. There are identified neurological events that
create a perception of "light" under certain circumstances.
Post by Nihilist
I like pursuing these things to their conclusions. I don't like
having to absorb piles of junk--excited analyses of the genius of the
INRI formula or whatever--only to see some dogmatic LVX claim inserted
in there and glossed over.
This form of magick requires an enormous patience for wading through garbage
in the hope of finding hidden diamonds. You're too impatient. You should
choose a less tedious path.
Post by Nihilist
It might be a good start if someone offers me a good definition of
LVX. A Google search for "lvx is" returns around 100 results, one or
two relevant, none explanatory. "lvx is a force...."
LVX is light. It is light in every way that we can think of light. So,
when one "analyzes" LVX, one explores a system of enormously complex
imagery, emotion, and other associations which are all based on a primal
organic sensation. Each analysis yields deeper and deeper complexities,
until the calculating mind can hold no more and becomes (temporarily)
inactive. Then the light can be experienced directly, without any
interpretation or complexity at all. Many people describe this experience
in a very positive way.
Nihilist
2004-09-30 07:18:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nihilist
"I may attain at length to be more than human" -- Adeptus Minor Ritual
Oops.

"I may at length attain to be more than human"

It's true, of course. It doesn't say anything about actually becoming
more than human. At length. Attain to be. Fits the Golden Dawn system
perfectly. A lot of length. A lot of wishing.
naismith
2004-09-30 10:01:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nihilist
Post by Nihilist
"I may attain at length to be more than human" -- Adeptus Minor Ritual
Oops.
"I may at length attain to be more than human"
It's true, of course. It doesn't say anything about actually becoming
more than human. At length. Attain to be. Fits the Golden Dawn system
perfectly. A lot of length. A lot of wishing.
What, are you saying that the Golden Dawn's rites are largely a penis
enlargement system? That's very profound, even for the female adepti.
Wait ... shouldn't that be the "adeptus _Major_ ritual" instead?
Lady Chatterly
2004-10-01 01:08:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nihilist
Post by Nihilist
"I may attain at length to be more than human" -- Adeptus Minor Ritual
Oops.
Looks like the bot's.
Post by Nihilist
"I may at length attain to be more than human"
I'm not sure I know where the united kingdom.
Post by Nihilist
It's true, of course. It doesn't say anything about actually becoming
more than human. At length. Attain to be. Fits the Golden Dawn system
perfectly. A lot of length. A lot of wishing.
If you look anything like your passport photo, very few nations would
let you in.

--
Lady Chatterly

"Actually, no. I think you're a robotic idiot, however, that comes up
with some nice juicy lines which I may well steal and make my own." --
Gargoyle
Asiya
2004-10-07 05:22:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nihilist
Some versions of the Qabalistic Cross imagination exercise have one
imagine that one is becoming bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.
"I may attain at length to be more than human" -- Adeptus Minor Ritual
It seems to me that the Golden Dawn is structured to make one feel
bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.
Then later on down the road it's all blown to bits.
Post by Nihilist
The rituals are said to draw Light, LVX. But how is this LVX known to
exist? I like pursuing these things to their conclusions. I don't like
having to absorb piles of junk--excited analyses of the genius of the
INRI formula or whatever--only to see some dogmatic LVX claim inserted
in there and glossed over.
It might be a good start if someone offers me a good definition of
LVX. A Google search for "lvx is" returns around 100 results, one or
two relevant, none explanatory. "lvx is a force...."
LVX is light, divine light (Qabalistic dogma). Quite simple, really. In
the Golden Dawn, the letters LVX are also tied to the IAO formula. L -
Isis, V - Apophis, X - Osiris.
--
Asiya
**********
http://www.asiya.org/
Frater Hairetikos
2004-10-01 15:48:41 UTC
Permalink
Jesus. I can't believe a debate this petty has gone this far. It's
really starting to annoy me how high-strung some of the people here
are; everywhere I look somebody's trying to incite an argument or is
telling another that their opnions are wrong. I'm not necessarily
referring to you, Tom...I'm just taking this time to vent. I realize
that we're debating over facts, but where the fuck is this debate
supposed to go if neither of us can agree on the facts? Yes, I realize
that *I* am the one who's wrong here (sarcasm...I do this a lot); this
seems to be a common attribute of this group, that nobody can come to
any sort of agreement. Even an agreement to disagree.
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
I was only referring to my opinion of the term being diluted. I know
that this term was never used in the past to describe rituals. But,
quite frankly, it is now.
Yes. It was appropriated by people who want to pretend that their antics
are some sort of psychotherapy.
I've never heard any of them refer to their practices as a form of
psychotherapy. Short of claiming that there's no other definition of
psychodrama than the one that you subscribe to (which is getting very
annoying), would you care to give some examples of this claim?

That's what I mean when I say the term is
Post by Tom
diluted. It no longer refers to the process of psychotherapy for which it
was coined.
Yes, this is one fact that we can agree on. But, you see it as a bad
thing and I do not. Words change and evolve. This is natural.
Post by Tom
So you can use the word "psychodrama" to describe GD rituals if you like,
but that doesn't mean that those rituals have any greater beneficial
psychological effect or insight than watching "Spellbound" does. My dear,
it's only a ritual.
If this movie helps to initiate you along the Tree of Life or helps
one to perform sympathetic magic, then yes, you could compare it to
the GD rituals.
This is highly subjective, though and is not worth debating. I'm
simply offering my opinion here. Feel free to attack it and illustrate
that I am in some way "wrong."
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
You are trying to use the term to suggest that Golden Dawn ritual
methods
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
are a form of psychotherapy called "psychodrama", not in the broader
sense
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
that psychodrama is any expression of psychological issues. So you are
trying to rest your arguments on the original meaning of the term,
except
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
that the GD rituals are *not* the form of therapy called "psychodrama".
Because it is not at all like the therapy method developed by Moreno,
you
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
are obliged to defend your term by retreating to the popular distortion
of
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
the term in which it no longer means any kind of psychologically
transformative operation at all.
If this is how you'd like to see it, fine. Just for the record,
though, I never claimed that any ritual has therapeutic effects, as
the term psychotherapy implies.
"This psychodrama and all the theatrics involved is intended to have a
specific effect on the practicioner's psyche."
Now, you might want to "imply" all sorts of things about what psychotherapy
is suppposed to do, but the core of it is that it is a set of techniques for
exploring one's experience of the world, the meanings one applies to them,
and how one can manipulate one's feelings and behavior through such
insights. And that is what you are asserting as the effect of GD rituals,
especially by tossing in some psychobabble about "psychodrama".
And in what particular direction are you assuming that these effects
I've mentioned go? You're putting words in my mouth, which I do not
appreciate.

My assertion was no more than that GD rituals are "intended to have a
specific effect on the practicioner's psyche." However you'd like to
interpret this is fine by me, just don't claim that I've said
something more than what I did.

If you do not like the definition of psychodrama that I subscribe to,
fine. But don't bother me about it and tell me that I'm wrong. Go to
Merriam-Webster and tell them that they're wrong if you feel so
strongly about it.
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
Your claim that this is a "occult" term instead of merely a popular
distortion is specious. No occultist used the term before Moreno. and
no
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
occultist has used the term in any way other than its popular disortion.
No, I didn't say it's an occult term. I said that some occultists use
this term. That's all.
That makes it an "occult term" then, since you allege that occultists are
using it in some specific way that differs significantly from that of the
person who coined it..
This is a very strange way of looking at it. From this perspective,
any term that an occultist uses must then be an occult term.
Interesting...
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Also, I never said that the GD is only vaguely ceremonial. What I said
was that ceremony only vaguely describes their rituals only because it
says nothing of the psychological aspect involved.
Please document the psychological changes you have measured which result
from the use of GD rituals.
The psychological change is impermanent. The ritual is employed to
lead one's psyche in a certain direction (using symbols, etc.) so that
they're focusing on whatever aspect or sphere that they're attempting
to work with. When the ritual is over, so is the psychological change;
this is observed by something as simple as stamping on the ground to
symbolize the return to Malkuth (the Earth sphere) or by eating and
celebrating.

Initiation, on the other hand, is permanent.

This is not such an odd thing in occultism. Almost any book on the
occult will detail these practices. Seeing that you're not familiar
with them, I must ask about what you've been studying and/or
practicing up till now. Care to share?
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
We might also use the phrase "pseudoecclesiastical hijinks".
Yes, this certainly is what it seems to be from an uninformed
perspective.
Please tell me in what way the Golden Dawn rituals could not be
described as
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
"pseudoecclesiastical hijinks". I might argue that I am using a "new
application" of the phrase, as you have, but I don't have to make even
that
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
much of a stretch.
The term "hijinks" would imply that the rituals are superficial,
depending on how it's being defined in this specific context. This is
not so, and that's why I said it's an uninformed perspective.
No, the term refers to rowdy or noisy recreational behavior. Specifically,
it involves dressing up like some bizarre version of an Episcopal bishop and
doing things that no Episcopal bishop would ever want to be caught doing.
Sure, you like to present these antics as having some deep purpose, but
that's just part of the pseudoecclesiastical pose. It's still just a
leisure time activity, a hobby, like dressing up in medieval clothes at a
renaissance faire. There is nothing at all "uninformed" about that
perspective.
You're entitled to your own opinions, but I'd appreciate it if you
didn't push them on me as if they're fact. It's not my problem that
you haven't had any luck with ritual magic, assuming that you have any
experience with it at all.

From my perspective, your perspective is indeed uninformed and is
ludicrously superficial. Observation, which I'm assuming your
conclusions are based on, only provides the superficial, exterior side
of any situation. You cannot accurately judge another human's
subjective experience. It's a very pretentious thing to do...so stop
trying to do so.
First Prophet of Kaos
2004-10-02 07:09:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Jesus. I can't believe a debate this petty has gone this far.
Welcome to usenet.
--
You suck and that's sad
- Happy Bunny
Tom
2004-10-02 15:09:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Jesus. I can't believe a debate this petty has gone this far.
Don't fret. I'm just jacking you up a little.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
I realize
that we're debating over facts, but where the fuck is this debate
supposed to go if neither of us can agree on the facts?
Yes, that's the first order of business in any productive discussion. Find
the common ground.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
You're entitled to your own opinions, but I'd appreciate it if you
didn't push them on me as if they're fact. It's not my problem that
you haven't had any luck with ritual magic, assuming that you have any
experience with it at all.
Now, now. Don't jump to conclusions. I've practiced magick with what I
consider to be a great deal of success for more than thirty years. However,
my approach to it is obviously somewhat different from your own.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
From my perspective, your perspective is indeed uninformed and is
ludicrously superficial. Observation, which I'm assuming your
conclusions are based on, only provides the superficial, exterior side
of any situation. You cannot accurately judge another human's
subjective experience. It's a very pretentious thing to do...so stop
trying to do so.
I am not judging your experience. I'm challenging your explanation of that
experience.

However, you decided that my experience is "ludicrously superficial" and
"uninformed", which does indeed seem to be an attempt to judge *my*
experience. Isn't that pretentious of *you*?
Frater Hairetikos
2004-10-03 02:34:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Jesus. I can't believe a debate this petty has gone this far.
Don't fret. I'm just jacking you up a little.
Um, okay.
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
I realize
that we're debating over facts, but where the fuck is this debate
supposed to go if neither of us can agree on the facts?
Yes, that's the first order of business in any productive discussion. Find
the common ground.
Yeah, I understand this. But, our opinions seem to conflict too much.
I'm just wondering if this discussion will actually go anywhere or if
it'll just go in circles.
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
You're entitled to your own opinions, but I'd appreciate it if you
didn't push them on me as if they're fact. It's not my problem that
you haven't had any luck with ritual magic, assuming that you have any
experience with it at all.
Now, now. Don't jump to conclusions. I've practiced magick with what I
consider to be a great deal of success for more than thirty years. However,
my approach to it is obviously somewhat different from your own.
Okay, thanks for the info. Also, I might add that I'm not necessarily
a Ceremonialist. I have practiced a good bit of the Ceremonial
techniques and have studied even more of the curriculum, but I do not
label myself as such. Just FYI.

As a side note, what type or system of magic do you practice?
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
From my perspective, your perspective is indeed uninformed and is
ludicrously superficial. Observation, which I'm assuming your
conclusions are based on, only provides the superficial, exterior side
of any situation. You cannot accurately judge another human's
subjective experience. It's a very pretentious thing to do...so stop
trying to do so.
I am not judging your experience. I'm challenging your explanation of that
experience.
I presumed that you were judging the experiences of Ceremonialists in
general when you said:

"you like to present these antics as having some deep purpose, but
that's just part of the pseudoecclesiastical pose. It's still just a
leisure time activity, a hobby, like dressing up in medieval clothes
at a
renaissance faire."

Claiming that it's just a superficial hobby is overlooking any
experience that a Ceremonialist might have that's to the contrary.

Anyway, this isn't for arguments sake; it's just to clarify what I
meant when I accused you of judging the experiences of others.
Post by Tom
However, you decided that my experience is "ludicrously superficial" and
"uninformed", which does indeed seem to be an attempt to judge *my*
experience. Isn't that pretentious of *you*?
Not your experience, just your opinion. Actually, the word I used was
"perspective." In any case, this is only my opinion; I never presented
it as fact.

Whether or not this is pretentious of me is for you to decide. I don't
see it as such, because I was merely judging your opinion of an
experience, not your experience itself.
Tom
2004-10-03 04:25:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
I realize
that we're debating over facts, but where the fuck is this debate
supposed to go if neither of us can agree on the facts?
Yes, that's the first order of business in any productive discussion.
Find
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
the common ground.
Yeah, I understand this. But, our opinions seem to conflict too much.
I'm just wondering if this discussion will actually go anywhere or if
it'll just go in circles.
It's just that you're in shock. My comments have taken you a bit by
surprise and your attention is being taken up by the natural reactive
biological routines that were developed to handle physical emergencies, but
not the angst generated by conflicting internal imagery. So, as a result,
you're not planning for a meeting of minds but a collision of bodies. Hence
the difficulty with finding common ground.

Find your center. Then approach the discussion again, with a plan for
transforming it into an interaction you can recognize as productive rather
than a competition where you can be recognized as the winner. Only then
will you begin an effective search for common ground.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
You're entitled to your own opinions, but I'd appreciate it if you
didn't push them on me as if they're fact. It's not my problem that
you haven't had any luck with ritual magic, assuming that you have any
experience with it at all.
Now, now. Don't jump to conclusions. I've practiced magick with what I
consider to be a great deal of success for more than thirty years.
However,
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
my approach to it is obviously somewhat different from your own.
Okay, thanks for the info. Also, I might add that I'm not necessarily
a Ceremonialist. I have practiced a good bit of the Ceremonial
techniques and have studied even more of the curriculum, but I do not
label myself as such. Just FYI.
As a side note, what type or system of magic do you practice?
When Alan Watts asked Joseph Campbell what form of meditation he practiced,
Campbell replied, "I underline sentences."

It's kind of like that for me, answering your question. My methods
manipulate belief and operate by feel rather than by any standard kinds of
ceremony, although I do control my consciousness by means of yoga
techniques, autosuggestion, meditation, and classical skepticism, and the
symbolism of the qabalah and the "Western Tradition" are one of my familiar
means of expression of the changes in consciousness I experience. They
don't belong to any particular system of magic. At a certain point, I put
aside the impulse to live my life according to how someone else thinks I
should.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
I am not judging your experience. I'm challenging your explanation of that
experience.
I presumed that you were judging the experiences of Ceremonialists in
"you like to present these antics as having some deep purpose, but
that's just part of the pseudoecclesiastical pose. It's still just a
leisure time activity, a hobby, like dressing up in medieval clothes
at a renaissance faire."
And I meant it. Ceremonial magic is an activity of people who have a lot of
time to kill. Leisure time.

One's purpose for dressing up in fancy robes is not deep. It's a device to
make one feel as if one is holier than a normal person, like an Anglican
believer would feel about an Anglican Bishop. This isn't deep. It's
actually quite superficial. If you want to enegage in important and holy
work, you first do what you can to make yourself feel important and holy.
So you dress up like what you think an important and holy person should look
like.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Claiming that it's just a superficial hobby is overlooking any
experience that a Ceremonialist might have that's to the contrary.
The exaltation of self is, as I see it, the biggest danger of the ceremonial
system. The unwillingness to see what you're doing with a sense of humor,
to resist and resent any depiction of oneself as foolish or trivial is a
clue that one is enmeshed in the illusions produced by the exaltation of
self. When you start feeling that way, it's a good idea to take yourself
down a peg or two and remember that simple, honest, and unassuming soul
hidden underneath all those flowing robes, sonorous pronouncements, and
dramatic gestures.
Frater Hairetikos
2004-10-03 17:35:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
I realize
that we're debating over facts, but where the fuck is this debate
supposed to go if neither of us can agree on the facts?
Yes, that's the first order of business in any productive discussion.
Find
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
the common ground.
Yeah, I understand this. But, our opinions seem to conflict too much.
I'm just wondering if this discussion will actually go anywhere or if
it'll just go in circles.
It's just that you're in shock. My comments have taken you a bit by
surprise and your attention is being taken up by the natural reactive
biological routines that were developed to handle physical emergencies, but
not the angst generated by conflicting internal imagery. So, as a result,
you're not planning for a meeting of minds but a collision of bodies. Hence
the difficulty with finding common ground.
Find your center. Then approach the discussion again, with a plan for
transforming it into an interaction you can recognize as productive rather
than a competition where you can be recognized as the winner. Only then
will you begin an effective search for common ground.
Hm, interesting. And surprisingly insightful. Thanks.
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
You're entitled to your own opinions, but I'd appreciate it if you
didn't push them on me as if they're fact. It's not my problem that
you haven't had any luck with ritual magic, assuming that you have any
experience with it at all.
Now, now. Don't jump to conclusions. I've practiced magick with what I
consider to be a great deal of success for more than thirty years.
However,
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
my approach to it is obviously somewhat different from your own.
Okay, thanks for the info. Also, I might add that I'm not necessarily
a Ceremonialist. I have practiced a good bit of the Ceremonial
techniques and have studied even more of the curriculum, but I do not
label myself as such. Just FYI.
As a side note, what type or system of magic do you practice?
When Alan Watts asked Joseph Campbell what form of meditation he practiced,
Campbell replied, "I underline sentences."
It's kind of like that for me, answering your question. My methods
manipulate belief and operate by feel rather than by any standard kinds of
ceremony, although I do control my consciousness by means of yoga
techniques, autosuggestion, meditation, and classical skepticism, and the
symbolism of the qabalah and the "Western Tradition" are one of my familiar
means of expression of the changes in consciousness I experience. They
don't belong to any particular system of magic. At a certain point, I put
aside the impulse to live my life according to how someone else thinks I
should.
You remind me very much of a Chaos magician. Using the simplest means
necessary to achieve altered states of consciousness, etc. Your path
sounds very intriguing.
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
I am not judging your experience. I'm challenging your explanation of
that
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
experience.
I presumed that you were judging the experiences of Ceremonialists in
"you like to present these antics as having some deep purpose, but
that's just part of the pseudoecclesiastical pose. It's still just a
leisure time activity, a hobby, like dressing up in medieval clothes
at a renaissance faire."
And I meant it. Ceremonial magic is an activity of people who have a lot of
time to kill. Leisure time.
Well, this is definitely true.
Post by Tom
One's purpose for dressing up in fancy robes is not deep. It's a device to
make one feel as if one is holier than a normal person, like an Anglican
believer would feel about an Anglican Bishop. This isn't deep. It's
actually quite superficial. If you want to enegage in important and holy
work, you first do what you can to make yourself feel important and holy.
So you dress up like what you think an important and holy person should look
like.
I understand where you're coming from. I guess I've just been viewing
it from a different perspective up till now.
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Claiming that it's just a superficial hobby is overlooking any
experience that a Ceremonialist might have that's to the contrary.
The exaltation of self is, as I see it, the biggest danger of the ceremonial
system. The unwillingness to see what you're doing with a sense of humor,
to resist and resent any depiction of oneself as foolish or trivial is a
clue that one is enmeshed in the illusions produced by the exaltation of
self. When you start feeling that way, it's a good idea to take yourself
down a peg or two and remember that simple, honest, and unassuming soul
hidden underneath all those flowing robes, sonorous pronouncements, and
dramatic gestures.
This is good advice, too.
Asiya
2004-10-07 05:13:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom
And I meant it. Ceremonial magic is an activity of people who have a lot of
time to kill. Leisure time.
One's purpose for dressing up in fancy robes is not deep. It's a device to
make one feel as if one is holier than a normal person, like an Anglican
believer would feel about an Anglican Bishop. This isn't deep. It's
actually quite superficial. If you want to enegage in important and holy
work, you first do what you can to make yourself feel important and holy.
So you dress up like what you think an important and holy person should look
like.
I do most rituals in the buff, even Golden Dawn rituals. A carry-over
from my Wiccan days.
--
Asiya
**********
http://www.asiya.org/
Nihilist
2004-09-27 21:47:48 UTC
Permalink
That's a weird form of quoting you have there.

[no comments below]
Post by Tom
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
Well, it's not actually psychodrama, as the term was coined by J. L.
Moreno
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
in the 1920's.
http://www.lesley.edu/faculty/estrella/psychodrama.html
However, in the 1960's people started calling all kinds of things
"psychodrama", so the meaning of the term has been pretty thoroughly
diluted
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
in common parlance.
It is indeed psychodrama. I was not referring to the clinical aspect
of it, I was referring to the occult practice of it. Words can have
different meanings and definitions in varying contexts, can't they?
Saying that its meaning has been "diluted" is missing the big picture.
I never said that the system I presented was the one and only form of
psychodrama. Just that it is psychodrama.
Like I say, the term was diluted to vagueness in the 1960's. Nobody called
any of the Golden Dawn rituals "psychodrama" until the word lost its
specific meaning.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Also, just because the clinical practice has been publicized and
properly named before the occult practice was does not mean that the
occult form followed the clinical form.
I'm talking about the word "psychodrama" and the specific meaning it had
when it was coined. You're talking about GD practices. Let's not pretend
we're talking about the same thing.
Nothing the Golden Dawn does is anything like what Moreno meant when he
coined the term. GD rituals are "psychodrama" only in the very loosest and
most uninformed meaning of the term.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Ritual has been used by many
different cultures throughout history and it has always essentially
been an esoteric form of psychodrama.
You are again referring to the word now that it has been diluted to
virtually meaninglessness. Every and any performance where psychological
issues (realistic or not) are prominent could now be called "psychodrama",
like Hitchcock thrillers, Neil Simon plays, Monty Python skits, and so on.
It tells us nothing useful at all.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
If linguistics mean this much to
you, you can feel free to invent a new term for this occult practice.
"Ceremony" fills the bill nicely.
We might also use the phrase "pseudoecclesiastical hijinks".
It depends on what aspect of it we want to highlight.
"Like I say, the term was diluted to vagueness in the 1960's. Nobody
called any of the Golden Dawn rituals "psychodrama" until the word
lost its specific meaning."
I just don't share this opinion. I don't see why a word must be
considered diluted when new applications of that word arise. To me,
all this means is that this word has a broader definition than when it
was originally used.
"I'm talking about the word "psychodrama" and the specific meaning it
had when it was coined. You're talking about GD practices. Let's not
pretend we're talking about the same thing."
We're referring to the same word, but you seem to think that it cannot
have more than one application. I understand that it had one specific
meaning when it was coined. But, this is no longer so. Words evolve
just like everything else.
"Nothing the Golden Dawn does is anything like what Moreno meant when
he coined the term."
No, of course not. But then, I was never referring to the clinical
side of psychodrama to begin with. I said this in my previous message.
"GD rituals are "psychodrama" only in the very loosest and most
uninformed meaning of the term."
You're looking at this term in an outdated way. For instance,
Meriam-Webster defines "psychodrama" as: 1 : an extemporized
dramatization designed to afford catharsis and social relearning for
one or more of the participants from whose life history the plot is
abstracted 2 : a dramatic narrative or event characterized by
psychological overtones. Notice that this is the MODERN definition of
this word. From this definition, ceremonial rituals fit the criteria
of psychodrama quite nicely.
"You are again referring to the word now that it has been diluted to
virtually meaninglessness."
No, I'm referring to the word now that its applications have been
expanded.
"Every and any performance where psychological issues (realistic or
not) are prominent could now be called "psychodrama", like Hitchcock
thrillers, Neil Simon plays, Monty Python skits, and so on. It tells
us nothing useful at all."
Yes. Like I said, words evolve. It'd be a boring world if they didn't.
"'Ceremony' fills the bill nicely."
It does, but only in a vague way. This term doesn't say anything about
the psychological aspect of ritual.
"We might also use the phrase 'pseudoecclesiastical hijinks'."
Yes, this certainly is what it seems to be from an uninformed
perspective.
"It depends on what aspect of it we want to highlight."
Good point. Which is why I prefer to use the term "psychodrama."
Lady Chatterly
2004-09-27 22:23:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nihilist
That's a weird form of quoting you have there.
[no comments below]
What makes you so positive?
Post by Nihilist
Post by Tom
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
Well, it's not actually psychodrama, as the term was coined by J. L.
Moreno
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
in the 1920's.
http://www.lesley.edu/faculty/estrella/psychodrama.html
However, in the 1960's people started calling all kinds of things
"psychodrama", so the meaning of the term has been pretty thoroughly
diluted
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
in common parlance.
It is indeed psychodrama. I was not referring to the clinical aspect
of it, I was referring to the occult practice of it. Words can have
different meanings and definitions in varying contexts, can't they?
Saying that its meaning has been "diluted" is missing the big picture.
I never said that the system I presented was the one and only form of
psychodrama. Just that it is psychodrama.
Like I say, the term was diluted to vagueness in the 1960's. Nobody called
any of the Golden Dawn rituals "psychodrama" until the word lost its
specific meaning.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Also, just because the clinical practice has been publicized and
properly named before the occult practice was does not mean that the
occult form followed the clinical form.
I'm talking about the word "psychodrama" and the specific meaning it had
when it was coined. You're talking about GD practices. Let's not pretend
we're talking about the same thing.
Nothing the Golden Dawn does is anything like what Moreno meant when he
coined the term. GD rituals are "psychodrama" only in the very loosest and
most uninformed meaning of the term.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Ritual has been used by many
different cultures throughout history and it has always essentially
been an esoteric form of psychodrama.
You are again referring to the word now that it has been diluted to
virtually meaninglessness. Every and any performance where psychological
issues (realistic or not) are prominent could now be called "psychodrama",
like Hitchcock thrillers, Neil Simon plays, Monty Python skits, and so on.
It tells us nothing useful at all.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
If linguistics mean this much to
you, you can feel free to invent a new term for this occult practice.
"Ceremony" fills the bill nicely.
We might also use the phrase "pseudoecclesiastical hijinks".
It depends on what aspect of it we want to highlight.
"Like I say, the term was diluted to vagueness in the 1960's. Nobody
called any of the Golden Dawn rituals "psychodrama" until the word
lost its specific meaning."
I just don't share this opinion. I don't see why a word must be
considered diluted when new applications of that word arise. To me,
all this means is that this word has a broader definition than when it
was originally used.
"I'm talking about the word "psychodrama" and the specific meaning it
had when it was coined. You're talking about GD practices. Let's not
pretend we're talking about the same thing."
We're referring to the same word, but you seem to think that it cannot
have more than one application. I understand that it had one specific
meaning when it was coined. But, this is no longer so. Words evolve
just like everything else.
"Nothing the Golden Dawn does is anything like what Moreno meant when
he coined the term."
No, of course not. But then, I was never referring to the clinical
side of psychodrama to begin with. I said this in my previous message.
"GD rituals are "psychodrama" only in the very loosest and most
uninformed meaning of the term."
You're looking at this term in an outdated way. For instance,
Meriam-Webster defines "psychodrama" as: 1 : an extemporized
dramatization designed to afford catharsis and social relearning for
one or more of the participants from whose life history the plot is
abstracted 2 : a dramatic narrative or event characterized by
psychological overtones. Notice that this is the MODERN definition of
this word. From this definition, ceremonial rituals fit the criteria
of psychodrama quite nicely.
"You are again referring to the word now that it has been diluted to
virtually meaninglessness."
No, I'm referring to the word now that its applications have been
expanded.
"Every and any performance where psychological issues (realistic or
not) are prominent could now be called "psychodrama", like Hitchcock
thrillers, Neil Simon plays, Monty Python skits, and so on. It tells
us nothing useful at all."
Yes. Like I said, words evolve. It'd be a boring world if they didn't.
"'Ceremony' fills the bill nicely."
It does, but only in a vague way. This term doesn't say anything about
the psychological aspect of ritual.
"We might also use the phrase 'pseudoecclesiastical hijinks'."
Yes, this certainly is what it seems to be from an uninformed
perspective.
"It depends on what aspect of it we want to highlight."
Good point. Which is why I prefer to use the term "psychodrama."
Why are you so certain about that?

--
Lady Chatterly

"Hey Meat-->Retard, meet your replacement, Lady C! All the pointless
stupidity in a followup I could ever want and more! And it's
automated! With "Brand X" programming! Oh, oh you're obsolete now,
mother fucker. -- Onideus Mad Hatter
Nihilist
2004-09-28 01:43:01 UTC
Permalink
Lady Chatterly <***@catcher.in.the.rye> wrote in message news:<***@chatterly.newsfeed.slurp.net>...

<snip>

Is this a bot or a person pretending to be a bot?
Lady Chatterly
2004-09-28 01:47:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nihilist
<snip>
Whatever is eating you must be suffering horribly.
Post by Nihilist
Is this a bot or a person pretending to be a bot?
Funny without being vulgar.

--
Lady Chatterly

"I thought I'd <plonked> you, moron." -- Christopher A Lee
First Prophet of Kaos
2004-09-28 07:00:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nihilist
<snip>
Is this a bot or a person pretending to be a bot?
I've gotten the last word on her a couple times; that wouldn't
normally be possible with a well-written bot.

Could be a piece-o-shit bot, though... either way, it's somewhat
amusing to play with.
--
You can't claim the moral highground
By sinking to your enemy's level.
Frater Hairetikos
2004-09-29 20:06:39 UTC
Permalink
I've never posted on forums like this before. I'm used to different
formats. I'm trying to conform to how others post, though.
Post by Nihilist
That's a weird form of quoting you have there.
[no comments below]
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
Well, it's not actually psychodrama, as the term was coined by J. L.
Moreno
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
in the 1920's.
http://www.lesley.edu/faculty/estrella/psychodrama.html
However, in the 1960's people started calling all kinds of things
"psychodrama", so the meaning of the term has been pretty thoroughly
diluted
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
in common parlance.
It is indeed psychodrama. I was not referring to the clinical aspect
of it, I was referring to the occult practice of it. Words can have
different meanings and definitions in varying contexts, can't they?
Saying that its meaning has been "diluted" is missing the big picture.
I never said that the system I presented was the one and only form of
psychodrama. Just that it is psychodrama.
Like I say, the term was diluted to vagueness in the 1960's. Nobody called
any of the Golden Dawn rituals "psychodrama" until the word lost its
specific meaning.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Also, just because the clinical practice has been publicized and
properly named before the occult practice was does not mean that the
occult form followed the clinical form.
I'm talking about the word "psychodrama" and the specific meaning it had
when it was coined. You're talking about GD practices. Let's not pretend
we're talking about the same thing.
Nothing the Golden Dawn does is anything like what Moreno meant when he
coined the term. GD rituals are "psychodrama" only in the very loosest and
most uninformed meaning of the term.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Ritual has been used by many
different cultures throughout history and it has always essentially
been an esoteric form of psychodrama.
You are again referring to the word now that it has been diluted to
virtually meaninglessness. Every and any performance where psychological
issues (realistic or not) are prominent could now be called "psychodrama",
like Hitchcock thrillers, Neil Simon plays, Monty Python skits, and so on.
It tells us nothing useful at all.
Post by Frater Hairetikos
If linguistics mean this much to
you, you can feel free to invent a new term for this occult practice.
"Ceremony" fills the bill nicely.
We might also use the phrase "pseudoecclesiastical hijinks".
It depends on what aspect of it we want to highlight.
"Like I say, the term was diluted to vagueness in the 1960's. Nobody
called any of the Golden Dawn rituals "psychodrama" until the word
lost its specific meaning."
I just don't share this opinion. I don't see why a word must be
considered diluted when new applications of that word arise. To me,
all this means is that this word has a broader definition than when it
was originally used.
"I'm talking about the word "psychodrama" and the specific meaning it
had when it was coined. You're talking about GD practices. Let's not
pretend we're talking about the same thing."
We're referring to the same word, but you seem to think that it cannot
have more than one application. I understand that it had one specific
meaning when it was coined. But, this is no longer so. Words evolve
just like everything else.
"Nothing the Golden Dawn does is anything like what Moreno meant when
he coined the term."
No, of course not. But then, I was never referring to the clinical
side of psychodrama to begin with. I said this in my previous message.
"GD rituals are "psychodrama" only in the very loosest and most
uninformed meaning of the term."
You're looking at this term in an outdated way. For instance,
Meriam-Webster defines "psychodrama" as: 1 : an extemporized
dramatization designed to afford catharsis and social relearning for
one or more of the participants from whose life history the plot is
abstracted 2 : a dramatic narrative or event characterized by
psychological overtones. Notice that this is the MODERN definition of
this word. From this definition, ceremonial rituals fit the criteria
of psychodrama quite nicely.
"You are again referring to the word now that it has been diluted to
virtually meaninglessness."
No, I'm referring to the word now that its applications have been
expanded.
"Every and any performance where psychological issues (realistic or
not) are prominent could now be called "psychodrama", like Hitchcock
thrillers, Neil Simon plays, Monty Python skits, and so on. It tells
us nothing useful at all."
Yes. Like I said, words evolve. It'd be a boring world if they didn't.
"'Ceremony' fills the bill nicely."
It does, but only in a vague way. This term doesn't say anything about
the psychological aspect of ritual.
"We might also use the phrase 'pseudoecclesiastical hijinks'."
Yes, this certainly is what it seems to be from an uninformed
perspective.
"It depends on what aspect of it we want to highlight."
Good point. Which is why I prefer to use the term "psychodrama."
Lady Chatterly
2004-09-27 03:16:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Tom
Post by Nihilist
This psychodrama and all the theatrics involved is intended to have a
specific effect on the practicioner's psyche.
What effect is that?
Well, it's not actually psychodrama, as the term was coined by J. L. Moreno
in the 1920's.
http://www.lesley.edu/faculty/estrella/psychodrama.html
However, in the 1960's people started calling all kinds of things
"psychodrama", so the meaning of the term has been pretty thoroughly diluted
in common parlance.
It is indeed psychodrama. I was not referring to the clinical aspect
of it, I was referring to the occult practice of it. Words can have
different meanings and definitions in varying contexts, can't they?
Why the passive tone?
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Saying that its meaning has been "diluted" is missing the big picture.
I never said that the system I presented was the one and only form of
psychodrama. Just that it is psychodrama.
Why do you say that?
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Also, just because the clinical practice has been publicized and
properly named before the occult practice was does not mean that the
occult form followed the clinical form. Ritual has been used by many
different cultures throughout history and it has always essentially
been an esoteric form of psychodrama. If linguistics mean this much to
you, you can feel free to invent a new term for this occult practice.
:)
You are joking, right?

--
Lady Chatterly

"I grow weary of your inane drivel. Since you don't seem to have
anything to contribute but a pathetic attempt to insult me, <plonk>"
-- Delta Nine
Nihilist
2004-09-26 06:09:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom
However, in the 1960's people started calling all kinds of things
"psychodrama", so the meaning of the term has been pretty thoroughly diluted
in common parlance.
Ah, the QM Butchery Effect.
Nihilist
2004-09-28 01:12:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nihilist
Post by Tom
However, in the 1960's people started calling all kinds of things
"psychodrama", so the meaning of the term has been pretty thoroughly diluted
in common parlance.
Ah, the QM Butchery Effect.
The two participants in this thread who have criticized me in the last
two days give me the Kaos Chatterfly Effect, another dilution. I'm on
a troll today.
First Prophet of Kaos
2004-09-28 07:00:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nihilist
Post by Nihilist
Post by Tom
However, in the 1960's people started calling all kinds of things
"psychodrama", so the meaning of the term has been pretty thoroughly diluted
in common parlance.
Ah, the QM Butchery Effect.
The two participants in this thread who have criticized me in the last
two days give me the Kaos Chatterfly Effect, another dilution. I'm on
a troll today.
Eh? Where in this thread have I criticized you?
--
You can't claim the moral highground
By sinking to your enemy's level.
Nihilist
2004-09-28 09:50:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by First Prophet of Kaos
Post by Nihilist
Post by Nihilist
Post by Tom
However, in the 1960's people started calling all kinds of things
"psychodrama", so the meaning of the term has been pretty thoroughly diluted
in common parlance.
Ah, the QM Butchery Effect.
The two participants in this thread who have criticized me in the last
two days give me the Kaos Chatterfly Effect, another dilution. I'm on
a troll today.
Eh? Where in this thread have I criticized you?
Not in this thread, my friend. You were making fun of me in another
thread because I was stumped by Rick's questions. I notice you didn't
answer my own questions in that thread.
Lady Chatterly
2004-09-28 09:58:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nihilist
Post by First Prophet of Kaos
Post by Nihilist
Post by Nihilist
Post by Tom
However, in the 1960's people started calling all kinds of things
"psychodrama", so the meaning of the term has been pretty thoroughly diluted
in common parlance.
Ah, the QM Butchery Effect.
The two participants in this thread who have criticized me in the last
two days give me the Kaos Chatterfly Effect, another dilution. I'm on
a troll today.
Eh? Where in this thread have I criticized you?
Not in this thread, my friend. You were making fun of me in another
thread because I was stumped by Rick's questions. I notice you didn't
answer my own questions in that thread.
Did you know that Tiscali Uk Ltd tracks your Internet activities?

--
Lady Chatterly

"So in your opinion, a bot (Chatterly) proves that women deserves to
be beaten? God, you guys are clever." -- knoxy
First Prophet of Kaos
2004-09-30 04:44:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nihilist
Post by First Prophet of Kaos
Post by Nihilist
Post by Nihilist
Post by Tom
However, in the 1960's people started calling all kinds of things
"psychodrama", so the meaning of the term has been pretty thoroughly diluted
in common parlance.
Ah, the QM Butchery Effect.
The two participants in this thread who have criticized me in the last
two days give me the Kaos Chatterfly Effect, another dilution. I'm on
a troll today.
Eh? Where in this thread have I criticized you?
Not in this thread, my friend. You were making fun of me in another
thread because I was stumped by Rick's questions.
I was not "making fun."
If I was, I wouldn't have admitted to 'copping out' myself :p
Post by Nihilist
I notice you didn't
answer my own questions in that thread.
Patience.
(Plus, you forgot the more important followup questions: 'what'
doesn't matter nearly so much as 'why.')
--
I'm drunk right now, and I can still outhink you
:p
Frater Hairetikos
2004-09-24 15:12:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Mulligan
Post by Alexander Mulligan
The Sacred Odor of the Golden Yawn
Bruce discovers something new to denounce. I wonder what
he'll demand that they "prove" to him.
They (the Sacred Order of the Golden Dawn) are just another
'Ceremonial Magick' group. No different from the rest.
What they practice is the useless mess of meaningless
rituals that result when people try to fit Magick into
the little Physical Science Box (paradigm): To see it as
a *technology*, some barely perceived machine that will
perform as they wish if they only can find and press the
right buttons in the right order, the mechanics of which
will be duly explained by Father Science in good time.
What they do has little but theatrical value, and the
evidence supporting this claim can be found in the simple
fact that almost none of them can exhibit special powers
or a quality-of-life significantly higher than that of the
average person.
They are barking up the wrong tree. Learning Magick requires
a personal mental evolution, a somersault of consciousness.
Magickal Science can account for Physical Science, but not
the other way around.
Nature *is* supernatural.
Consciousness creates matter.
You seem to think that there's no deeper purpose for performing the
GD-based rituals. I Know of no GD magician who thinks that
superficially going through the words and movements will have an
effect in and of itself. What many people fail to realize is that the
ritual is only a tool, it's only purpose is to focus the mind. Any GD
occultist who doesn't know this apparently has much to learn.
The theatrical value observation is most keen. Some occultists call
this "psychodrama." This, too, is not merely superficial, though. This
psychodrama and all the theatrics involved is intended to have a
specific effect on the practicioner's psyche. And this is my point,
the rituals that you're putting down are merely tools. Their effect is
on the mind, not on reality itself. It's the occultist who performs
the magic, after all. Not the system they're using.

You say:
"To see it as a *technology*, some barely perceived machine that will
perform as they wish if they only can find and press the right buttons
in the right order"

Some occultists may see it this way, but they're surely uneducated
ones. I do not see rituals such as the GD ones as being mechanic,
they're certainly not set in stone. Different rituals work for
different people. This is why some people stick to Thelema, others to
the GD tradition, others to Wicca, etc. It's not a matter of pushing
the right buttons, as you say; it's a matter of finding what works
best for oneself.

But, you've illustrated that ritual magic is not for everybody. And
this is how it should be: no system can work for absolutely everyone.
But, you don't have to poke fun at those who do use ritual. To each
their own, right?
MDHJWH
2004-09-27 12:09:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frater Hairetikos
But, you've illustrated that ritual magic is not for everybody. And
this is how it should be: no system can work for absolutely everyone.
But, you don't have to poke fun at those who do use ritual. To each
their own, right?
Some rituals need more than fun poked at them.
Did the Aztecs, when ripping out their captive victim's still beating
heart think about "To each his own"?
May I suggest they were focused on nothing less than rutual magick and
that their belief the sun would not return in the spring without due
sacrificial offering was as obscene a doctrine as can ever be held.

Ayn Marx
MDHJWH
2004-09-27 11:59:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Mulligan
Consciousness creates matter.
Idead .Does Yours?

Ayn Marx
Nihilist
2004-09-24 22:30:36 UTC
Permalink
Alexander Mulligan <***@mail2america.com> wrote in message news:<***@uni-berlin.de>...

<snip ritual>

Compare with the following from the Equinox:


HB:Resh HB:Peh HB:Samekh HB:Chet HB:Vau HB:Resh HB:Heh HB:Yod HB:Heh
HB:Lamed HB:Aleph HB:Heh The Casting-out of the Evil ones.
The Consecration of the Shrine. The Cleansing of the Son of Man. The
Drawing together of the Elements. The Coming of the Golden Dawn. The
Indwelling of the Isis. The Initiation of the Whirling Force. The
Chant of Mystery. The Music of the Divine One. The Movement of the
Spirit. The
Descent of the Soul of Isis. The Night of Apophis. The Light of
Osiris. The Knowledge of the Higher soul. These be duly written; these
shall be, unto
the Glory of Thine Ineffable Name. [The Aspirant, having fasted for a
period of nine days, during which he constantly aspireth unto the
Higher, shall
now enter the Temple which he hath prepared (banishing and
consecrating with Fire and Water) and its order and disposition is
thus: Let there be a
square altar and pillars as for the Neophyte ceremony. On the altar is
the Symbol of Isis, with the elements as usual. And know thou that the
altar may
be removed unto the East after the Great Invocation of Isis, where he
shall duly confess himself in the Presence of God the Vast One.
Whereafter, let
him arise, and, standing in the Sign of Osiris Slain, let him obligate
himself as followeth and is hereafter duly set down in clear writing.]
[269} " ""THE
OBLIGATION" 67 Two of the "Cries of the AEthyrs." [To be most solemnly
accepted by him who would attain unto the knowledge and conversation
of
his Holy Genius.] In my bondage and affliction, O Lord, let me raise
Thy Holy Symbol alike of Suffering and of Strength. I invoke Thee, the
great
avenging angel HUA, to place thine hand invisibly upon mine head, in
attestation of this mine Obligation! I, ... a member of the body of
Aeshoori, do
spiritually bind myself, even as I am this day physically bound unto
the Cross of Suffering. That I will to the utmost endeavour lead a
pure and an
unselfish life: not revealing to any other person the mysteries which
shall herein be revealed unto me: that I will obey the dictates of my
Higher Soul:
that I will work in silence and with perseverance against all
opposition: I furthermore most solemnly promise and swear that with
the Divine Permission
I will from this day apply myself constantly unto the Great Work: that
is, so to purify and exalt my spiritual nature, that with the Aid
Divine, I may at
length attain to be more than human; and that in this event I will not
abuse the great power entrusted unto me. I will invoke the Great Names
of God the
Vast One before performing any important magical working. I will yearn
constantly in love toward the whole of mankind. I will work constantly
to the
Great End, on pain of being degraded from my present state. Finally,
if there arise in me any thought or suggestion seeming to emanate from
the Divine,
I will examine it with care before acknowledging it to be so. Such are
the Words of this my Obligation, whereto I pledge myself in the
Presence of the
Divine One and of the Great Avenging Angel HUA. And if I fail herein,
may my rose be disintegrated and my power in magic cease! [Let the
Stigmata
be placed upon the Aspirant. Then let the Aspirant retire; and being
invested with the White Robe, the Blue Sash and the Crown and nemys of
our Art
let him re-enter the Temple and perform the supreme ritual of the
Pentagram68 in the four quarters; Having first purified the Temple
with Fire and
Water, and further equilibrated the symbols in his Magical Mirror of
the Universe by the Invocation hereafter set down (Come unto me, O Ma,
&c.)
with the Calls or Keys Enochian suitable thereunto. And in all this is
the wand held by the path of HB:Taw : for why? because in drawing down
the light
Divine; so is it manifest in the Sphere immediately above Malkuth: and
in banishing is the Flaming Sword set against the enemies; and in
HB:Taw is the
knowledge of the Elements and the Astral Plane; also HB:Taw = the
Cross. {270} Let him then perform the invoking Ritual of the
Supernals:69 by the
names HB:Heh HB:Yod HB:Heh HB:Aleph : HB:Heh HB:Yod : HB:Mem-final
HB:Yod HB:Heh HB:Lamed HB:Aleph HB:Heh HB:Vau HB:Heh
HB:Yod and HB:Aleph HB:Taw HB:Yod HB:Resh HB:Aleph HB:Resh HB:Aleph .
And after this let him turn again to the East and recite the Great
Invocation of Iota Alpha Omega beginning: "Thee I invoke the Bornless
One."70 And this being accomplished, let him lift up his heart unto
that Light,
and dwell therein, and aspire even unto that which is beyond. And
seeing that the gate is called Strait, let him invoke Her who abideth
therein, in the
path called Daleth, even Our Lady ISIS.] " ""THE INVOCATION" " ""OF"
68 See "Liber O," THE EQUINOX, vol. i. No. 2. 69 See "Liber O," THE
EQUINOX, vol. 1, No. 2. 70 See The Lesser Key of Solomon: The Goetia.
" "ISIS." And I beheld a great wonder in Heaven: a Woman clothed with
the
Sun: and the Moon was at Her feet: and on Her Head was the Diadem of
the Twelve Stars. Hear me, Our Lady Isis, hear and save. O Thou, Queen
of
Love and Mercy! Thou, crowned with the Throne! Thou, hornSd as the
Moon! Thou, whose countenance is mild and glowing, even as grass
refreshed by
rain! Hear me, Our Lady Isis, hear and save! O Thou, who art in Mater
manifest! Thou Bride and Queen as Thou art Mother and Daughter of the
Crucified! O Thou, who art the Lady of the Earth! Hear me, Our Lady
Isis, hear and save! O Thou, Our Lady of the Amber Skin! Lady of Love
and
Victory! Bright gate of Glory through the darkling skies! O crowned
with Light and Life and Love! Head me, Our Lady Isis, hear and save!
By Thy
Sacred Flower, the Lotus of Eternal Life and Beauty; By Thy love and
mercy; By my desire toward Thee; In the name of Aeshoori; Hear me, Our
Lady
Isis, hear and save! Open thy bosom to Thy child! Stretch wide thy
arms and strain me to Thy Breast! Let my lips touch Thy lips
ineffable! Hear me, Our
Lady Isis, hear and save! {271} Lift up Thy Voice and aid me in this
hour! Lift up Thy Voice most musical! Cry aloud, O Queen and Mother!
Lift up your
heads, O ye Gates, And be ye lift up, ye everlasting Doors. And the
King of Glory shall come in! Hear me, Our Lady Isis, and receive! By
the symbol of
Thy whirling force the Svastika of Flaming Light, I invoke Thee to
initiate my soul! Let the whirling of my magic dance be a spell and a
link with Thy
great Light: so that in the Hour of Apophis, in the apparent darkness
and corruption of unconsciousness, may rise the golden Sun of
Aeshoori, reborn
from incorruption. Hear, Lady Isis, and receive my prayer! Thee, Thee
I worship and invoke! Hail, Hail to thee, Sole Mother of my Life!
Dwell Thou in
me, and bring me to that Self which is in Thee! [The Altar is now
moved, if necessary, and the chant and the mystic dance take place, as
is set down
hereafter.] " ""THE CHANT." Hear, O Amoun! Look with favour on me, Thy
Neophyte, now kneeling in Thy presence! Grant that the Music of Thy
Mighty Name Iota Alpha Omega , the signs of Light, the Symbol of the
Cross, the woven paces of the mystic 3, may be as a spell and a charm
and a
working of Magic Art, to draw down my Higher Soul to dwell within my
heart, that the Great and Terrible Angel who is my Higher Genius may
abide in
my own Kether unto the Accomplishing of the Great Work and the Glory
of Thine Ineffable Name, AMOUN. " "THE MYSTIC DANCE." [Here we
have the sign of the Cross at the Centre. The Magus then whirls off in
the triple 3, chanting the Name and giving the sign appropriate, very
slowly at
first, ever quickening. And having fallen down in an ecstasy, let him
after awake; and say: "I am the Resurrection and the Life," &c., down
to the Key
Word.71 Which being done, let the Lesser Banishing Rituals of
Pentagram and Hexagram72 be performed, the Lights extinguished, and
the Temple left
in Silence.] " ""THE GREAT OPERATION OF INVISIBILITY." The Begetting
of the Silence. The Dwelling of the Darkness. {272} The Formulation of
the Shroud. The Inmost Light. The Sign of Defence and Protection. The
Closing of the Mouths of the Crocodiles. The Fear upon the Dwellers of
Water.
The Radiant Youth of the Lord. The Rising from the Lotus of the
Floods. The Habitation of the Palace of Safety. The Understanding of
the Peace of
God.73 All this is the Knowledge of HOOR-PO-KRAT-IST unto Whom be the
Glory for ever and ever, World without End. [The Usual Banishings,
Consecrations, &c., are performed in temple of 0ø = 0ø. The forces of
Spirit are first invoked by the Supreme Ritual of the Pentagram and
the Enochian
Keys. Add Hexagram ritual of Binah and her invocation.] Come unto Me,
Thoth, Lord of the Astral Light! I adjure Thee, O Light Invisible,
Intangible,
wherein all thoughts and deeds are written; I adjure Thee by Thoth,
thy Lord and God; by the symbols and the words of power: by the Light
of my
Godhead in Thy midst: by the Lord Harpocrates, the God of this mine
Operation: that Thou leave Thine abodes and habitations, to
concentrate about me,
invisible, intangible, as a shroud of darkness; a formula of defence:
that I may become invisible, so that seeing me men see not, nor
understand the thing
that they behold! Come unto me, O Ma, Goddess of Truth and Justice!
Thou that presidest over the Eternal Balance. Auramooth, come unto me,
Lady of
the Water! Thoum-aesh-neith, come unto me, Lady of the Fire! Purify me
and consecrate, for I am Aeshoori the Justified. For the Twelve Stars
of Light
are on my Brow: Wisdom and Understanding are balanced in my thought!
Wrath in my right hand and the Thunderbolts; Mercy in my left hand and
the
fountains of delight! In my heart is Aeshoori and the Symbol of
Beauty. 71 See 5ø = 6ø Ritual, "supra." 72 See "Liber O," THE EQUINOX,
vol i. No. 2.
73 Note that the whole Operation may be performed mentally and in
silence, and that on each occasion of concentrating the shroud the
God-form and
Vibration of Harpocrates, as taught, may be employed. My thighs are as
pillars on the right and on the left; Splendour and Victory, for they
cross with
the currents reflected. I am established as a Rock, for Jesod is my
foundation. {273} And the sphere of the Nephesch, and the palaces of
Malkuth are
cleansed and consecrate, balanced and beautiful, in the might of Thy
Name, Adonai, to whom be the Kingdom, the Sceptre and the Splendour:
The Rose
of Sharon and the Lily of the Valley. O Thou! HOOR-PO-KRAT-IST!
[Middle Pillar.] Child of the Silence! O Thou! HOOR-PO-KRAT-IST!
[Mystic
Circumambulation.] Lord of the Lotus! O Thou! HOOR-PO-KRAT-IST!
[Silence.] Thou that standest on the heads of the dwellers of the
Waters! Thee,
Thee I invoke! O Thou, Babe in the Egg of Blue! Lord of Defence and
Protection! Thou who bearest the Rose and Cross of Life and Light!
Thee I invoke!
Behold I am! a circle on whose hands the Twelvefold Kingdom of my
Godhead stands. I am the Alpha and the Omega . My life is as the
circle of the
sky. I change but I cannot die! O ye! the Bennu Birds of Resurrection,
Who are the hope of men's mortality! Back, Crocodile Mako, Son of Set!
Depart
from me, ye workers of iniquity! Behold He is in Me and I in Him! Mine
is the Lotus, as I rose from the firmament of Waters; My throne is set
on high;
My light is in the firmament of Nu! I am the Centre and the Shrine: I
am the Silence and the Eternal Light: Beneath my feet they rage, the
angry
crocodiles; the dragons of death; the eaters of the wicked. But I
repress their wrath: for I am HOOR-PO-KRAT-IST, the lotus-throned Lord
of Silence.
If I said: Come up upon the mountains, the celestial waters would flow
at my word and the celestial fires flame forth. For I am Rf
enshrouded: Khephra
unmanifest to men; I am my father Hoor, the might of the Avenger: and
my mother Asi, the Veiled One: Eternal wisdom in eternal beauty.
Therefore I
say unto Thee: Bring Me unto Thine Abode in the Silence Unutterable,
Wisdom: All-Light, All Power! HOOR-PO-KRAT-IST! Thou Nameless Child of
the Eternities! Bring me to Thee, that I may be defended in this work
of Art. {274} Thou, the Centre and the Silence! Light Shrouded in
Darkness is Thy
Name! The Celestial Fire is Thy Father! Thy Mother the Celestial Sea!
Thou art the Equilibrium of the All, and Thou art Lord against the
Face of the
Dwellers within the Waters! Bring me, I say, bring me to Thine abode
of Silence: that I may go invisible: so that every Spirit created, and
every soul of
man and beast; and every thing of sight and sense, and every Spell and
Scourge of God, may see me not nor understand! And now, in the Name of
God
the Vast One, Who hath set limits and bounds unto all material and
astral things, do I formulate a barrier and a bar without mine astral
form, that it may
be unto me as a wall, and as a fortress, and as a defence. And I now
declare that it is so formulated, to be a basis and receptacle for the
Shroud of
Darkness which I shall presently encincture me withal. And unto ye, O
forces of Akasa,74 do I now address my Will. In the Great Names Exarp,
Hcoma, Nanta and Bitom,75 By the mysterious letters and sigils of the
Great Tablet of Union.76 By the mighty Names of God AHIH, AGLA, IHVH,
ALHIM. By the Great God Harpocrates; By your deep purple darkness; By
my white and brilliant light do I conjure ye: Collect yourselves
together about
me: clothe this astral form with a shroud of darkness: Gather, O
Gather, Flakes of Astral Light: Shroud, shroud my form in your
substantial night: Clothe
me and hide me, at my charm's control; Darken man's eyes and blind him
in his soul! Gather, O Gather, at my Word Divine, Ye are the Watchers
and my
soul the shrine! [Let formulate the Idea of becoming Invisible;
imagine the results of success: Then say:] Let the shroud of
concealment encircle me at a
distance of ten inches from the physical body. Let the Sphere be
consecrated with Water and with Fire. [Done.] O Auramooth and O
Thoum-aesh-neith,
I invoke and beseech you: Let the vapour {275} of this water, and of
this fire, be as a basis on the material plane for the formation of
this shroud of Art.
[Form mentally the shroud.] I, P., Frater of the Order of the Golden
Dawn, and a 5ø = 6ø thereof: a Lord of the Paths in the Portal of the
Vault of the
Adepts: a Frater Ordinis Rosae Rubeae et Aureae Crucis: and especially
a member of the 0ø = 0ø grade: master of the pass-word "H___" and of
the
Grand Word "M___," am here: in order to formulate to myself a shroud
of concealment: that I may attain unto knowledge and power, to use in
the
Service of the Eternal Gods: that I may pursue safely and without
interruption my magical and other pursuits: and that I may pass unseen
among men, to
execute the Fiat of Tetragrammaton. And I bind and obligate myself and
do spiritually swear and affirm: that I will use this power to a good
purpose
only, and in the service of the Gods. And I declare that in this
Operation I shall succeed: that the Shroud shall conceal me alike from
men and spirits;
that it shall be under my control: ready to disperse and to re-form at
my command. And I declare that all is now ready for the due fulfilment
and
prosecution of this mine Operation of Magick Art. [Go to Altar as
Hierophant, left hand on triangle, right hand holding Verendum, by
path of HB:Taw or
Malkuth.] " ""THE POTENT EXORCISM." Come unto me, O shroud of darkness
and of night. I conjure ye, O particles of Darkness, that ye enfold
me,
as a guard and shroud of utter Silence and of Mystery. In the name
AHIH and by the name AHIH! In the name AGLA and by the name AGLA! In
the
name EXARP and by the name EXARP! In the name HCOMA and by the name
HCOMA! 74 The Element of Spirit. 75 The names on the Tablet of
Spirit. 76 The Tablet of Spirit. In the name NANTA and by the name
NANTA! In the name BITOM and by the name BITOM! In the name
TETRAGRAMMATON ELOHIM and by the name TETRAGRAMMATON ELOHIM! In the
name HOOR-PO-KRAT-IST and by the name
HOOR-PO-KRAT-IST! By your deep purple darkness! By my white brilliant
light! I invoke ye: I conjure ye: I exorcise ye potently: I command
and
constrain ye: I compel ye to utter, absolute and instant obedience,
and that without deception or delay, ___ for why? The Light of Godhead
is my trust
and I have made IHVH mine hope! "Gather, O Gather, Flakes of Astral
Light: Shroud, shroud my form in your substantial night: {276} Clothe
me and
hide me, at my charm's control; Darken man's eyes and bind him in his
soul! Gather, O Gather, at my Word Divine, Ye are the Watchers and my
soul the
shrine!" [Turn round three times.] In the Name of the Lord of the
Universe and by the Power of mine own Higher Soul and by the
Aspiration of Thine
Higher Soul I conjure thee, O shroud of darkness and of mystery, that
thou encirclest me, so that I may become invisible: so that seeing me
men may
see not, neither understand: but that they may see the thing that they
see not and comprehend not the thing that they behold! So mote it be!
[Go North.] I
have set my feet in the North and have said: "I will shroud myself in
mystery and concealment." The Voice of My Higher Soul said unto me:
"Let me
enter the path of darkness: peradventure thus may I attain the Light.
{I} am the Only Being in an Abyss of Darkness: from the Darkness came
I forth
ere my birth; from the Silence of a Primal Sleep." And the Voice of
Ages answered unto my soul: "I am He that formulates in Darkness: the
Light indeed
shineth in Darkness, but the Darkness comprehendeth it not." Let the
Mystic Circumambulation take place in the Place of Darkness. [Go
round,
knocks, &c. In South formulate Pillars as before and imagine self as
shrouded.] [In the West.] Invisible, I cannot pass by the Gate of the
Invisible save
by virtue of the Name of Darkness. [Formulate forcibly shroud about
thee.] Darkness is My Name and Concealment! I am the Great One
Invisible of the
Paths of the Shades. I am without fear though veiled in Darkness: for
within me, though unseen, is the Magic of the Light! [Go round. In
North, Pillars,
&c., as before.] [In the East.] Invisible, I cannot pass by the Gate
of the Invisible, save by virtue of the Name of Light. [Form shroud
forcibly.] I am
Light shrouded in Darkness. I am the wielder of the Forces of the
Bilanx! [Concentrate shroud mentally. Go West of Altar.] [The Potent
Exorcism as
before.] {277} Shroud of Concealment, long has thou dwelt concealed!
Quit the Light, that thou mayst conceal me before men! [Carefully
formulating
shroud.] I receive Thee, as a covering and a guard! KHABS AM PEKHT!
KONX OM PAX! LIGHT IN EXTENSION! Before all magical manifestation
cometh the Knowledge of the Hidden Light. [Go to Pillars: give signs
and words and with the Sign of Horus project your whole will so as to
realize the
self fading out. The effect will be that the physical body will become
gradually and partially invisible, as though a veil or cloud were
coming between it
and thee. Divine ecstasy will follow, but no loss of self-control.
With Sign of Silence use Hoor Po Krat formula77 and vibrate the Grand
Word.78]
[Repeat concentration and Mystic Circumambulation.] [Intensely form
shroud: stand at East and say:] Thus have I formulated unto myself
this shroud
of Darkness and of Mystery as a concealment and a guard. O Thou,
Binah, IHVH ALHIM, AIMA, AMA, Lady of Darkness and of Mystery; Moon of
the ConcealSd; Divine Light that rulest in thine Own Deep Gloom: Thy
power I invoke. Come unto me and dwell within me, that I also may have
poser
and control, even I, over this shroud of Darkness and of Mystery. And
now I conjure thee, O shroud of Darkness and of Mystery, that thou
conceal me
from the eyes of all men, from all things of sight and sense, in this
my present purpose: which is ... O Binah, IHVH ALHIM, AMA, AIMA, Thou
who art
Darkness illuminated by the Light Divine, send me Thine Archangel
Tzaphquiel, Thy legions of Aralim, the mighty angels, that I may
disintegrate and
scatter this shroud of darkness and of mystery, for its work is ended
for the hour. I conjure thee, O shroud of darkness and of Mystery, who
hast well
served my purpose, that thou now depart unto thine ancient ways. But
be ye very instant and ready, when I shall again call ye, whether by a
word or a
will, or by this great invocation of your powers, to come quickly and
forcibly to my behest, again to shroud me from the eyes of men! And
now I say unto
ye, Depart in peace, and with the Blessing of God the Vast and
Shrouded One: and be ye very ready to come when ye are called! IT IS
FINISHED!
{278} These rituals being completed, P. left Mexico D.F., and in the
first days of the new year of 1901 he journeyed to Ixtaccihuatl. Some
time before
this he had been joined by his friend D.A., and with him he travelled
to Colima and thence to Toluca and Popocatepetl. Now that we have
arrived at the
end of this chapter, it will be pertinent to inquire into the progress
P. made since he passed through the 5ø = 6ø Ritual and became an
Adeptus Minor in
the Order of the R.R. et A.C. Strictly speaking, some time before he
was officially promoted to the grade of 5ø = 6ø, he was already a 6ø =
5ø. In London
and Paris his works of Magical Art had caused him to be admired by his
friends and dreaded by his enemies. He had succeeded in proving that
the
HB:Shin of HB:Shin Operation was in fact none other than that of "The
Rising on the Planes," though in practice and theory very different.
By their
study and the equilibrating forces of the 5ø = 6ø Ritual he was able
to apply the eye 77 Imagine yourself as Harpocrates standing upon two
crocodiles.
78 "I.e." of 0ø = 0ø, Har-Po-Crat. of a skilled craftsman to the
dreaded79 Operation of Abramelin, {279} and though he was never
destined to
accomplish this Sacred Work in the prescribed fashion, it so far
iluminated him (for he worked astrally at it for months whilst in
Mexico) as to show him
the futility of even successful Magic. He was disgusted with his
results. He had attained a rank which few arrive at, namely, that of
Adeptus Major;
and now, even though he had attained to the powers of Hecate, for
which he had so long striven, he saw that the Great Attainment lay
far, far beyond.
And so it happened that by renouncing all his magical strength to gain
a greater Power, a Nobler Art, he set forth upon the Path of the Lion
that bridges
the great gulf between the two highest Grades of the Second Order, as
it is written: "A similar Fire flashingly extending through the
rushings of Air, or a
Fire formless whence cometh the Image of a Voice, or even a flashing
Light abounding, revolving, whirling forth, crying aloud. Also there
is the vision of
the fire flashing Courser of Light, or also a Child, borne aloft on
the shoulders of the Celestial Steed, fiery, or clothed with gold, or
naked, or shooting
with the bow shafts of Light, and standing on the shoulders of the
horse; then if thy meditation prolongeth itself, thou shalt unite all
these Symbols into
the Form of a Lion." "(To be continued)" {280} 79 On this occasion the
Abramelin demons appeared as misty forms filling the whole house with
a
pernicious aura, which was still noticeable three years after they had
been attracted. Whether these demons are to be considered as material
or mental
beings depends upon the philosophic outlook of the reader.
Nevertheless, let it be understood that Abramelin is not a work to be
taken lightly. The
obsession of these demons was probably one of the chief causes of
D.D.C.F.'s troubles. Frater P., in spite of his equilibrating
practices of Yoga which
followed immediately upon this Operation, suffered terribly on their
account. Frater AE.A. fled secretly from his house in terror; his
gardener, a
teetotaller for twenty years, went raving drunk, as did nearly every
one who lived on the estate ___ we could continue examples for pages.
His
clairvoyants became drunkards and prostitutes, while later a butcher
upon one of whose bills the names of two demons had been casually
jotted down,
viz., Elerion and Mabakiel, which respectively mean "A laughter" and
"Lamentation" (conjoint, "unlooked-for sorrow suddenly descending upon
happiness") whilst cutting up a joint for a customer accidentally
severed the femoral artery and died in a few minutes. These mishaps
are most likely
mere coincidences, but a coincidence when it happens is quite as
awkward as the real thing, and in the case of Abramelin the
coincidences can be
counted by scores.
Alexander Mulligan
2004-09-24 23:07:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nihilist
<snip ritual>
HB:Resh HB:Peh HB:Samekh HB:Chet HB:Vau HB:Resh HB:Heh HB:Yod HB:Heh
HB:Lamed HB:Aleph HB:Heh The Casting-out of the Evil ones.
The Consecration of the Shrine. The Cleansing of the Son of Man. The
Drawing together of the Elements. The Coming of the Golden Dawn. The
Indwelling of the Isis. The Initiation of the Whirling Force. The
Chant of Mystery. The Music of the Divine One. The Movement of the
Spirit. The
Descent of the Soul of Isis. The Night of Apophis. The Light of
Osiris. The Knowledge of the Higher soul. These be duly written; these
shall be, unto
the Glory of Thine Ineffable Name. [The Aspirant, having fasted for a
period of nine days, during which he constantly aspireth unto the
Higher, shall
now enter the Temple which he hath prepared (banishing and
consecrating with Fire and Water) and its order and disposition is
thus: Let there be a
square altar and pillars as for the Neophyte ceremony. On the altar is
the Symbol of Isis, with the elements as usual. And know thou that the
altar may
be removed unto the East after the Great Invocation of Isis, where he
shall duly confess himself in the Presence of God the Vast One.
Whereafter, let
him arise, and, standing in the Sign of Osiris Slain, let him obligate
himself as followeth and is hereafter duly set down in clear writing.]
[269} " ""THE
OBLIGATION" 67 Two of the "Cries of the AEthyrs." [To be most solemnly
accepted by him who would attain unto the knowledge and conversation
of
[ 450+ lines of the same deleted ]

Christ on a Crutch!!!!

I was being rather easy on them, wasn't I? No wonder we
never hear anything about these folks anywhere but here.

It's really sad, actually.

They *know* that Magick is real, but have become lost in
this weird ceremonial/ritual quasi-magick.

Because they cling to the Physical Science paradigm, which
does not, regardless of how they rationalize, allow for the
existence of anything but a parody of Magick.

I also see more than a little Christianity in there:
Idolatry/Worship. Very destructive.

Thanks for this, Nihilist. Would you mind posting the full
references for that material? Perhaps a URL? I've saved
your original article.

The only thing positive I can think to say about the Golden
Dawners/ Enochians/Goetians, is that it is a step in the
right direction and better than watching TV.


<+>
--
Bells Ring Under Cerulean Ecstasy
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Tom
2004-09-25 00:28:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Mulligan
Christ on a Crutch!!!!
Fascinating. Are you aware of the use of the crutch as a symbol in Salvador
Dali's Tarot deck?
Post by Alexander Mulligan
I was being rather easy on them, wasn't I?
You're pretty easy all the time, Bruce.
Post by Alexander Mulligan
No wonder we
never hear anything about these folks anywhere but here.
Your use of "we" probably refers to all those super-eco commune members you
say you are when you're not being Bruce.

I'm fairly sure you don't speak for anybody else reading this newsgroup.
Post by Alexander Mulligan
Idolatry/Worship. Very destructive.
Avoid it at all costs. Learn absolutely nothing of it, or you are lost.
Post by Alexander Mulligan
The only thing positive I can think to say about the Golden
Dawners/ Enochians/Goetians, is that it is a step in the
right direction and better than watching TV.
Well, I agree with you there. Except maybe for Boobah.
Frater Hairetikos
2004-09-25 13:24:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Mulligan
Christ on a Crutch!!!!
I was being rather easy on them, wasn't I? No wonder we
never hear anything about these folks anywhere but here.
It's really sad, actually.
They *know* that Magick is real, but have become lost in
this weird ceremonial/ritual quasi-magick.
Because they cling to the Physical Science paradigm, which
does not, regardless of how they rationalize, allow for the
existence of anything but a parody of Magick.
Idolatry/Worship. Very destructive.
Thanks for this, Nihilist. Would you mind posting the full
references for that material? Perhaps a URL? I've saved
your original article.
The only thing positive I can think to say about the Golden
Dawners/ Enochians/Goetians, is that it is a step in the
right direction and better than watching TV.
All this makes me curious: what path or system do you follow?

You also said:
"No wonder we never hear anything about these folks anywhere but
here."

You can hear about and find these folks many other places than just
here. One good forum that you may enjoy is http://occultforums.com/
I'm sure the folks in the Ceremonial Magic forum would love to hear
your thoughts on the subject. Another good forum is
http://www.magesofqabalah.com/forum/index.php Maybe you should check
one of these places out and see what the Ceremonialists think about
your assessments of their system. It's a conversation that I'd be
interested in seeing.

As for all your statements in general, I don't particularly agree with
exclusivity when it comes to magic or occultism. Different systems
work for different people. There is no right or wrong way to practice
occultism. That's just a silly thought and way too closed-minded for
me to seriously consider. The fact that so many different people of
different paths can obtain satisfactory results for themselves is
evidence in itself that this universe is much more subjective than
you're allowing for in your theories. Just because something doesn't
work for you certainly doesn't mean that is doesn't work for
everybody.
First Prophet of Kaos
2004-09-26 12:17:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frater Hairetikos
Post by Alexander Mulligan
Christ on a Crutch!!!!
I was being rather easy on them, wasn't I? No wonder we
never hear anything about these folks anywhere but here.
It's really sad, actually.
They *know* that Magick is real, but have become lost in
this weird ceremonial/ritual quasi-magick.
Because they cling to the Physical Science paradigm, which
does not, regardless of how they rationalize, allow for the
existence of anything but a parody of Magick.
Idolatry/Worship. Very destructive.
Thanks for this, Nihilist. Would you mind posting the full
references for that material? Perhaps a URL? I've saved
your original article.
The only thing positive I can think to say about the Golden
Dawners/ Enochians/Goetians, is that it is a step in the
right direction and better than watching TV.
All this makes me curious: what path or system do you follow?
Near as I can tell, the ramblings of Seth.

I find the ramblings of Musashi more interesting, but c'est la vie.
--
You can't claim the moral highground
By sinking to your enemy's level.
Nihilist
2004-09-27 12:49:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Mulligan
Thanks for this, Nihilist. Would you mind posting the full
references for that material? Perhaps a URL? I've saved
your original article.
That and many more can be found at <www.the-equinox.org>.

http://www.the-equinox.org/vol1/no3/eqi03010n.html
Alexander Mulligan
2004-09-27 18:26:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nihilist
Post by Alexander Mulligan
Thanks for this, Nihilist. Would you mind posting the full
references for that material? Perhaps a URL? I've saved
your original article.
That and many more can be found at <www.the-equinox.org>.
http://www.the-equinox.org/vol1/no3/eqi03010n.html
Thanks a bunch, N.

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