Discussion:
Am I An Active Member of a Wiccan Coven Now?
(too old to reply)
ren
2008-12-25 19:36:57 UTC
Permalink
Wiccans usually do not use the word 'parishioner'.

In other words, Self-Initiation is valid. Upon initiating yourself,
you become a Solitaire Wiccan Priest or a Solitaire Wiccan Priestess.

If you join a Wiccan coven, and there is need for a clergy member
(members who organize Gatherings, Sabbats and Esbats) you will
probably be asked to undergo a Coven initiation whereby you become an
active member of the Wiccan Clergy.

There are Wiccan clergy members called Priests and Priestesses of the
Clergy. However, this does not mean that non-clergy members are not
Priests and Priestesses in their own right.

If you would like to know, I am an initiated Wiccan priest. I am an
inactive member of several covens in
Saint Louis,
Arkansas,
San Francisco,
Texas,
Germany,
Cincinnati,
Phoenix,
and Seattle as of 3 years ago,

I am known as Coyote among them.

I am currently not an active member of any Wiccan coven in Tokyo, of
course. But I am a part of an eclectic group studying magick and
spiritism with some of the most famous people in Japan. We also do
energy work. But this is more like ceremonial practice than adhering
to ethnic Wiccan rituals. Tokyo is a truly international city. I have
Syrian friends, African friends, Welsh friends, etc. Because we meet
in groups dedicated to metaphysical studies, I can learn a lot from
them. I am a personal friend of the 2nd highest ranking Shinto priest
in all of Japan. Japanese Shinto and Edo Period Onmyoudou is very
similar in belief and practice to Wicca in many ways. I was a computer
person. Now I am a full-time script writer and English editor. I also
privately teach English. That is why I am a grammarian. I do forgive
mistakes because of tiredness or quickness. But the same mistakes over
and over, I should not forgive. It makes you a more effective poster.

I have lived in Germany for over 7 years. I often travel from the
U.S.A. to Germany to my home all the time as I have relatives there. I
often attend Wiccan gatherings yearly in Germany and the U.S. Because
I can travel, I will leave it to you to decide just how affluent I am
at this time.


ren
2008-12-25 19:46:51 UTC
Permalink
And if any of you are stupid enough to come and try to find me and
hurt me, it will mean you will die of mysterious causes.

I told you that I am working with spirits. It does not matter if you
believe they exist or not. Let this be a final warning to you.

Let me finish your investigation for those of you who obsessively
insist. Let us end this now. http://www.fujitv.co.jp/en/
Sidney Lambe
2008-12-25 21:05:49 UTC
Permalink
#Followup-To set to alt.religion.wicca
Post by ren
And if any of you are stupid enough to come and try to find me and
hurt me, it will mean you will die of mysterious causes.
Why would anyone want to hurt you? You aren't a threat to anyone
except in your own mind.

YOU are the one who is always threatening to hurt people.
Post by ren
I told you that I am working with spirits. It does not matter if you
believe they exist or not. Let this be a final warning to you.
The only spirits you work with come in a bottle or a can.
Post by ren
Let me finish your investigation for those of you who obsessively
insist. Let us end this now. http://www.fujitv.co.jp/en/
What investigation?

I don't care what your name is or where you live.

Why would I? You are nothing but another dishonest and cowardly
windbag with a computer.

I've already seen plenty of those.

Sid
--
My newsfilter kills more than half the posts to these groups,
including replies to any name in my killfile. So if I don't
respond to a reply it is because I didn't see it.
Thou shalt not suffer a troll to speak in thine presence.
separatus
2008-12-26 04:05:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by ren
And if any of you are stupid enough to come and try to find me and
hurt me, it will mean you will die of mysterious causes.
Ren;

Why? I don't know you and haven't looked you up. I don't know whom you
are referring to but I can assume it's not me. Why do you feel so
threatened? I am happy to take this offline.
ren
2008-12-26 04:14:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by separatus
Why? I don't know you and haven't looked you up. I don't know whom you
are referring to but I can assume it's not me. Why do you feel so
threatened? I am happy to take this offline.
Sidney has constantly been making veiled references to looking into
where I am.
Sidney Lambe
2008-12-26 05:10:13 UTC
Permalink
#Followup-To set to alt.religion.wicca
Post by ren
Post by separatus
Why? I don't know you and haven't looked you up. I don't know whom you
are referring to but I can assume it's not me. Why do you feel so
threatened? I am happy to take this offline.
Sidney has constantly been making veiled references to looking into
where I am.
No. I've made one or two articles that a paranoid like you could have
interpreted that way.

I _could_ hire an international private investigations firm by
phone right now. (via a masked internet phone number that
couldn't be traced to me) They'd probably charge one of my
anonymous debit cards less than a thousand dollars to deliver
a fat file on you, Ren. Name, address, images, school records,
criminal records, medical records, military records (if any),
financial history, work history....

One of the first things they'd do is give me a private email address
to a secured pop/imap server to send all the information I already
have on you to them.

This would be nothing to me, Ren. A matter of a few minutes work.
I could then post the information anonymously all over the internet
if I chose to.

I don't do it because I don't care. You aren't a threat to me or
anyone else, and you don't have anything valuable I want.

You are just a cheap con artist.

Sid
--
My newsfilter kills more than half the posts to these groups,
including replies to any name in my killfile. So if I don't
respond to a reply it is because I didn't see it.
Thou shalt not suffer a troll to speak in thine presence.
Aunty_Kreist
2008-12-26 06:44:11 UTC
Permalink
I'd take him seriously, too- he's highly unstable, and he's done this
before.

Were you posting to ARW during the time that Chive threatened to call me on
the telephone? This is going back a handful of years. Anyway, he ended up
phoning Blujuju all the way from Hawaii instead to "prove" it was really
him. He doesn't understand boundaries.
Post by separatus
Why? I don't know you and haven't looked you up. I don't know whom you
are referring to but I can assume it's not me. Why do you feel so
threatened? I am happy to take this offline.
Sidney has constantly been making veiled references to looking into
where I am.
ren
2008-12-26 09:22:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aunty_Kreist
I'd take him seriously, too- he's highly unstable, and he's done this
before.
Were you posting to ARW during the time that Chive threatened to call me on
the telephone? This is going back a handful of years. Anyway, he ended up
phoning Blujuju all the way from Hawaii instead to "prove" it was really
him. He doesn't understand boundaries.
Yes. I was here. Chive is chemically imbalanced and does not think
that the law pertains to him. He likes to call people, ruin their
chances for adoption, try to get them fired.. on and on. Lurkers on
alt.religion.wicca inform me that they have also talked to Chive in
Washington State. They inform me that he has a severe case of OCD. A
complete nutcase. I know the guy in person. He is an insane freak who
can't take criticism. Nobody likes him. He talks to people and they
get up and walk away.

Speaking of Blu, did you look at BBDD's website? Blu happens to be a
friend. Maybe just to keep her enemies close..

http://360.yahoo.com/friends-qsPAmZEwd6raAr_YNjPpndQQ
Aunty_Kreist
2008-12-26 17:12:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aunty_Kreist
I'd take him seriously, too- he's highly unstable, and he's done this
before.
Were you posting to ARW during the time that Chive threatened to call me on
the telephone? This is going back a handful of years. Anyway, he ended up
phoning Blujuju all the way from Hawaii instead to "prove" it was really
him. He doesn't understand boundaries.
Yes. I was here. Chive is chemically imbalanced and does not think
that the law pertains to him. He likes to call people, ruin their
chances for adoption, try to get them fired.. on and on. Lurkers on
alt.religion.wicca inform me that they have also talked to Chive in
Washington State. They inform me that he has a severe case of OCD. A
complete nutcase. I know the guy in person. He is an insane freak who
can't take criticism. Nobody likes him. He talks to people and they
get up and walk away.

Last time he trolled ARW, he was using the name "Max" and claimed to be from
Hawaii. He's also gone by the name Devin McAndrews quite often. Are you sure
this person is from WA? He seems to delight in using proxies and masking his
true IP.

I don't think it's worth it to even bother contacting his ISP for
threats....if he threatens anyone harm, a phone call to the police is in
order. He doesn't understand boundaries or etiquette- like how you just
*DONT* bother people in real life because of a stupid newsgroup argument. He
can't tell where fantasy ends and real life begins.


Speaking of Blu, did you look at BBDD's website? Blu happens to be a
friend. Maybe just to keep her enemies close..

http://360.yahoo.com/friends-qsPAmZEwd6raAr_YNjPpndQQ



That doesn't appear to be "our" Blu. It isn't her in the photo. ;)

I think the obsolute worst revenge you could get on Chive is for *everyone*
(and it has to be a total group effort or it won't work) to either KF him,
or completely ignore him. It literally makes him go apeshit. He always has
the same modus operandi everytime he appears here- first, he posts things
intended to irritate and get people to argue with him. Then, he focuses on
one or two people and obsessively follows them around. When anyone starts
standing up to him and he can't deny or excuse his behavior anymore, he
begins to forge posts under other people's names. It'll get so bad that the
newsgroup is rendered unreadable. When people finally have enough and stop
responding, he'll then spam the group with dozens if not hundreds of
nonsense posts a day. It's only when he still doesn't get any response that
he'll fuck off and troll elsewhere. And let's not forget the multiple
alias's he'll use when people stop responding to the current one!

But seriously, if you completely ignore him, he'll totally lose it. His OCD
doesn't allow him to be ignored.
ren
2008-12-26 22:52:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aunty_Kreist
But seriously, if you completely ignore him, he'll totally lose it. His OCD
doesn't allow him to be ignored.
I think we've made our point. ;)
Sidney Lambe
2008-12-26 23:08:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by separatus
Post by ren
And if any of you are stupid enough to come and try to find me and
hurt me, it will mean you will die of mysterious causes.
Ren;
Why? I don't know you and haven't looked you up. I don't know whom you
are referring to but I can assume it's not me. Why do you feel so
threatened? I am happy to take this offline.
What you are really looking at, saparatus, is a would-be
priest/con artist trying to get rid of anyone who refuses to
believe anything he says and/or expects him to demonstrate
magickal abilities he claims to have, and/or posts ideas that
contradict his.

He is trying to convince people that I (that's who he is referring
to) am trying to hurt him.

The truth is that _he_ is the one who has been threatening to
kill me, or scramble my brains, with magick. (And he's been
doing the same thing to BBDD.)

Ren is your typical airhead internet con artist, who expects
everyone to believe everything he posts, even though he takes
great pains to hide his identity so that no one can validate
any of his claims, and demonstrates no knowledge that can't
be acquired in minutes with google.

And even though his claims are utterly preposterous.

[Ren has claimed to be a kundalini yoga master, spirit medium, a
magickal adept so advanced that he can kill people or scramble
their brains, shaman (master of lucid dreaming), and an Egyptian
priest (who else could call on Egyptian gods and expect them to
do his bidding?)]

If you take the discussion offline, you will just bet a bigger
dose of lies than you would here.

He's a clown and an established liar and fraud.

Sid
--
My newsfilter kills more than half the posts to these groups,
including replies to any name in my killfile. So if I don't
respond to a reply it is because I didn't see it.
Thou shalt not suffer a troll to speak in thine presence.
separatus
2008-12-27 06:58:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sidney Lambe
And even though his claims are utterly preposterous.
I've had a similar experience with BBDD. Have you ever wondered if a
rabid desire for attention consequently fueled by outlandish boasts
and threats might be ... the result of a limited imagination?
Sidney Lambe
2008-12-27 07:57:21 UTC
Permalink
#Followup-To set to alt.religion.wicca
Post by separatus
And even though his [Ren's] claims are utterly preposterous.
I've had a similar experience with BBDD.
Oh yes. An obnoxious idiot who has been in my killfile for a
while.

Unlike another fellow here, who shall remain nameless, I don't
regard him to be a potential danger. The other fellow is smooth
enough, barely, to victimize gullible and vulnerable people,
particularly youngsters.

And I don't believe his real motives for wanting the kind of
power a priest has over his followers has anything to do with
magick or 'spirituality'.

I took a look at his dreams a while back and saw him walking
like a spider on all fours, creeping up on someone with a greedy
expression on his face. Naked and with an erection.

I think he's probably a sexual predator.
Post by separatus
Have you ever wondered if a rabid desire for attention
consequently fueled by outlandish boasts and threats might be
... the result of a limited imagination?
Partly. Ren is just desperate to silence any critics. He wants to
be a priest, someone who is looked up to and that others depend
on. He wants to control others.

But he doesn't want to do any real work. All he wants to do
is skim webpages and play the role.

But he's so immature and insecure that it infuriates him when
someone questions the veracity of anything he says.

He doesn't even have the patience to be a good con artist.

If he had any sense and discipline at all he would just ignore me
and BBDD.

He's gotten so lost in his imaginings, where I am sure that
dominating others with his terrible magickal power predominates,
that he actually believes he's a mighty mage and forgets that
he's just another vidiot. So he makes absurd threats and ends up
looking like a fool.

Sorry for mispelling your name in the other post.


Sid
--
My newsfilter kills more than half the posts to these groups,
including replies to any name in my killfile. So if I don't
respond to a reply it is because I didn't see it.
Thou shalt not suffer a troll to speak in thine presence.
Sidney Lambe
2008-12-25 21:02:21 UTC
Permalink
#Followup-To set to alt.religion.wicca
ren <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

More bullshit from the master of bullshit.

All he does is run his mouth on the internet. When the hell
does he find time to do all the things he claims he has done?

Answer: He doesn't need to find time for fictional events.
Post by ren
Wiccans usually do not use the word 'parishioner'.
In other words, Self-Initiation is valid. Upon initiating yourself,
you become a Solitaire Wiccan Priest or a Solitaire Wiccan Priestess.
I see. Then anyone can be a Wiccan priest by just saying they are.

Good grief! Is this clown for real?
Post by ren
If you join a Wiccan coven, and there is need for a clergy member
(members who organize Gatherings, Sabbats and Esbats) you will
probably be asked to undergo a Coven initiation whereby you become an
active member of the Wiccan Clergy.
There are Wiccan clergy members called Priests and Priestesses of the
Clergy. However, this does not mean that non-clergy members are not
Priests and Priestesses in their own right.
Do you make this stuff up as you go along, just as you do your resume?

I have to assume so.
Post by ren
If you would like to know, I am an initiated Wiccan priest. I am an
inactive member of several covens in
Saint Louis,
Arkansas,
San Francisco,
Texas,
Germany,
Cincinnati,
Phoenix,
and Seattle as of 3 years ago,
I am known as Coyote among them.
I am currently not an active member of any Wiccan coven in Tokyo, of
course. But I am a part of an eclectic group studying magick and
spiritism with some of the most famous people in Japan. We also do
energy work. But this is more like ceremonial practice than adhering
to ethnic Wiccan rituals. Tokyo is a truly international city. I have
Syrian friends, African friends, Welsh friends, etc. Because we meet
in groups dedicated to metaphysical studies, I can learn a lot from
them. I am a personal friend of the 2nd highest ranking Shinto priest
in all of Japan. Japanese Shinto and Edo Period Onmyoudou is very
similar in belief and practice to Wicca in many ways. I was a computer
person. Now I am a full-time script writer and English editor. I also
privately teach English. That is why I am a grammarian. I do forgive
mistakes because of tiredness or quickness. But the same mistakes over
and over, I should not forgive. It makes you a more effective poster.
I have lived in Germany for over 7 years. I often travel from the
U.S.A. to Germany to my home all the time as I have relatives there. I
often attend Wiccan gatherings yearly in Germany and the U.S. Because
I can travel, I will leave it to you to decide just how affluent I am
at this time.
http://youtu.be/hLG-fyz8Zx0
I don't believe anything you say, "Ren". Your basic dishonesty has
been demonstrated many times on this group.

But even if it were all true, what good does it do you? If it
can't even make you honest it isn't worth shit, is it?

Speaking of ethical deficiencies, I know of no 'spiritually'
advanced person who threatens to kill people or scramble their
brains with magick, which you have done here. Over pettiness.

Nor can you demonstrate anything remotely resembling magick.

You are a big bag of hot air. Anyone who recognizes you as
a 'spiritually' advanced person or a mage is a gullible
fool.

As for your forgiveness, you can shove it up your lying ass.

And rotate on it.


Sid
--
My newsfilter kills more than half the posts to these groups,
including replies to any name in my killfile. So if I don't
respond to a reply it is because I didn't see it.
Thou shalt not suffer a troll to speak in thine presence.
ren
2008-12-26 03:20:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sidney Lambe
All he does is run his mouth on the internet. When the hell
does he find time to do all the things he claims he has done?
I work an average of 10 hours a day 6 days a week. It's Christmas time
and I'm off. My mornings are free which allows me to roam the Internet
and forums looking for ideas, going to the gym, or participating in
"fictional" events.
Post by Sidney Lambe
I see. Then anyone can be a Wiccan priest by just saying they are.
Yes. That is true. If you start calling yourself a Wiccan priestess or
Wiccan priest, then you are. However, there are a few normative
requirements that you must meet in order for others to call you a
Wiccan.
Post by Sidney Lambe
Do you make this stuff up as you go along, just as you do your resume?
Unlike you, I'm not looking for a job.
Post by Sidney Lambe
As for your forgiveness, you can shove it up your lying ass.
Wiccans are not required to forgive. We aren't Christians as you
continue to state until you are blue in the face.
Sidney Lambe
2008-12-26 03:41:12 UTC
Permalink
#Followup-To set to alt.religion.wicca
Post by ren
Post by Sidney Lambe
All he does is run his mouth on the internet. When the hell
does he find time to do all the things he claims he has done?
I work an average of 10 hours a day 6 days a week. It's
Christmas time and I'm off. My mornings are free which allows
me to roam the Internet and forums looking for ideas, going to
the gym, or participating in "fictional" events.
Once again, you expect me to believe an established liar.

Thou art dense.
Post by ren
Post by Sidney Lambe
I see. Then anyone can be a Wiccan priest by just saying they
are.
Yes. That is true. If you start calling yourself a Wiccan
priestess or Wiccan priest, then you are. However, there are
a few normative requirements that you must meet in order for
others to call you a Wiccan.
That's handy for cheap con artists like you. A Christian
priest/minister has to go to college/seminary for years to
be ordained.
Post by ren
Post by Sidney Lambe
Do you make this stuff up as you go along, just as you do your resume?
Unlike you, I'm not looking for a job.
There you go again, demonstrating your utter lack of integrity.

Please post a link to an article of mine where I have said
anything that would lead anyone to believe that I was looking
for a job.

You can't.

And you already know that you can't.

You are a liar.

And you don't seem to care that everyone knows this.

Which leads me to think that you have more than a few
loose screws.

The fact is that you don't know anything about my personal
life.
Post by ren
Post by Sidney Lambe
As for your forgiveness, you can shove it up your lying ass.
Wiccans are not required to forgive.
Not my point. I don't ask for forgiveness from stupid punks
like you who keep threatening to kill me with magickal
skills they don't have.
Post by ren
We aren't Christians as you continue to state until you are
blue in the face.
Wicca is obviously just Christianity in new-age clothing.

And any religion that would allow a cheap con artist and
established liar like you to call himself one of their priests is
not only worthless, it is probably dangerous.


Sid
--
My newsfilter kills more than half the posts to these groups,
including replies to any name in my killfile. So if I don't
respond to a reply it is because I didn't see it.
Thou shalt not suffer a troll to speak in thine presence.
ren
2008-12-26 04:17:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sidney Lambe
There you go again, demonstrating your utter lack of integrity.
Please post a link to an article of mine where I have said
anything that would lead anyone to believe that I was looking
for a job.
You post all day long from the same workstation. That is proof enough.
Sidney Lambe
2008-12-26 04:59:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by ren
Post by Sidney Lambe
There you go again, demonstrating your utter lack of integrity.
Please post a link to an article of mine where I have said
anything that would lead anyone to believe that I was looking
for a job.
You post all day long from the same workstation. That is proof enough.
How could you know that? I could be anywhere in the world and simply
logging into my home computer.

Once again you demonstrate your ignorance of computers.

And how do you know that I am not actually _working_ at my
workstation?

What if I am retired or simply independently wealthy?

You know nothing about me.

And less about magick.

But you sure know how to bullshit.

Sid
--
My newsfilter kills more than half the posts to these groups,
including replies to any name in my killfile. So if I don't
respond to a reply it is because I didn't see it.
Thou shalt not suffer a troll to speak in thine presence.
Sidney Lambe
2008-12-26 05:47:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sidney Lambe
Post by ren
Post by Sidney Lambe
There you go again, demonstrating your utter lack of integrity.
Please post a link to an article of mine where I have said
anything that would lead anyone to believe that I was looking
for a job.
You post all day long from the same workstation. That is proof enough.
How could you know that? I could be anywhere in the world and simply
logging into my home computer.
Once again you demonstrate your ignorance of computers.
And how do you know that I am not actually _working_ at my
workstation?
What if I am retired or simply independently wealthy?
You know nothing about me.
And less about magick.
But you sure know how to bullshit.
I've been trying to figure out why Ren thinks he knows that
I post from the same "workstation" all the time.

Must be the Path and Message-ID headers.

Check out my headers this time, Ren.

As impossible as it might seem, he knows even less about computers
than he does magick.

Sid
--
My newsfilter kills more than half the posts to these groups,
including replies to any name in my killfile. So if I don't
respond to a reply it is because I didn't see it.
Thou shalt not suffer a troll to speak in thine presence.
Aunty_Kreist
2008-12-26 06:46:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sidney Lambe
Post by ren
Post by Sidney Lambe
There you go again, demonstrating your utter lack of integrity.
Please post a link to an article of mine where I have said
anything that would lead anyone to believe that I was looking
for a job.
You post all day long from the same workstation. That is proof enough.
How could you know that? I could be anywhere in the world and simply
logging into my home computer.
Once again you demonstrate your ignorance of computers.
And how do you know that I am not actually _working_ at my
workstation?
What if I am retired or simply independently wealthy?
You know nothing about me.
Well, we know that you obviously have quite a lot of free time on your
hands, and don't appear to have any other hobbies. You literally post around
the clock. You are "at your workstation" posting to usenet at least 16 hours
a day. You have a pretty severe internet addiction.
Post by Sidney Lambe
And less about magick.
But you sure know how to bullshit.
Sid
--
My newsfilter kills more than half the posts to these groups,
including replies to any name in my killfile. So if I don't
respond to a reply it is because I didn't see it.
Thou shalt not suffer a troll to speak in thine presence.
h***@shaw.ca
2008-12-27 06:47:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by ren
Wiccans usually do not use the word 'parishioner'.
In other words, Self-Initiation is valid. Upon initiating yourself,
you become a Solitaire Wiccan Priest or a Solitaire Wiccan Priestess.
If you join a Wiccan coven, and there is need for a clergy member
(members who organize Gatherings, Sabbats and Esbats) you will
probably be asked to undergo a Coven initiation whereby you become an
active member of the Wiccan Clergy.
There are Wiccan clergy members called Priests and Priestesses of the
Clergy. However, this does not mean that non-clergy members are not
Priests and Priestesses in their own right.
If you would like to know, I am an initiated Wiccan priest. I am an
inactive member of several covens in
Saint Louis,
Arkansas,
San Francisco,
Texas,
Germany,
Cincinnati,
Phoenix,
and Seattle as of 3 years ago,
I am known as Coyote among them.
I am currently not an active member of any Wiccan coven in Tokyo, of
course. But I am a part of an eclectic group studying magick and
spiritism with some of the most famous people in Japan. We also do
energy work. But this is more like ceremonial practice than adhering
to ethnic Wiccan rituals. Tokyo is a truly international city. I have
Syrian friends, African friends, Welsh friends, etc. Because we meet
in groups dedicated to metaphysical studies, I can learn a lot from
them. I am a personal friend of the 2nd highest ranking Shinto priest
in all of Japan. Japanese Shinto and Edo Period Onmyoudou is very
similar in belief and practice to Wicca in many ways. I was a computer
person. Now I am a full-time script writer and English editor. I also
privately teach English. That is why I am a grammarian. I do forgive
mistakes because of tiredness or quickness. But the same mistakes over
and over, I should not forgive. It makes you a more effective poster.
I have lived in Germany for over 7 years. I often travel from the
U.S.A. to Germany to my home all the time as I have relatives there. I
often attend Wiccan gatherings yearly in Germany and the U.S. Because
I can travel, I will leave it to you to decide just how affluent I am
at this time.
http://youtu.be/hLG-fyz8Zx0
I am reading about some german magick stuff right now.
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